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1450....no spark
Gentlemen:
New to the forum, but not cubs. I picked up a complete 1450 that hasn't run in 5 years. Guy said it ran when he parked it. Engine spins free via jumper cables on starter, but other than that, no key spin. I'm just starting to work on this thing. I replaced the fuse holders on the dash, new ignition switch, battery of course, still nothing at the key. Is there a safety switch somewhere I need to look into? I've got no spark at the plug or points. I plan on tearing it all down and redoing everything, just wanted to hear it run before I start to dismantle everything. Thanks for any info you can share. Metalrain |
There should be a wiring diagam in the technical library section of the site.. but off the top of my head, there may be a safety switch on the brake pedal for starting still or on the seat? Depending on how many folks have meddled with your wiring you may have some shadetree fxes to undo.
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Get a decent test light, a wiring diagram and about 20 minutes of no interruptions and you'll have it figured out.
The only other thing is, I can't possibly stress this enough... Check your grounds! |
Thanks guys.....didn't see the library section when i first came to the site....tons of information there, I think i can get this thing up and running now...
Metalrain |
Metal Rain: You are gonna get the QL Electrical Ground lecture:bigthink:
1) Lift the seat and remove the ground cable. Go to your nearest auto parts store and get a new one of the same or slightly longer length. (they sell 'em as starter cables). As a note: Automotive starter cables have the correct flat ends on both ends of the cable. 2) Then look between the fender pan bolts and you will see a hole in the left frame rail. Clean the paint from all around this hole to bare metal, apply a bit of di-electric grease and using a new bolt, nut and lock-washer attach your new ground cable to the new location and then of course re-attach to the negative terminal of the battery. That will get you the required good ground connection to the frame. 3) Then go around to the right front side of the tractor, remove the side panel, and re-establish a good (clean to the bare metal!!) ground connections on that little ole short ground cable from the frame to the engine block!! If it's missing, then you will need to get a new (starter cable) short one from that same auto supply store. This cable is required because the rubber Iso-Bar engine mounts make a poor-to-no electrical ground connection!!! 4) Now you may find that all kinds of electrical stuff that starts working.. 5) Circuit is a form of the latin word for circle...The ground portion of an electrical "circuit" is just part of the "circle". A poor or no ground and the electric power (or enough of it) can't make the whole trip around the circle back to the battery!! Lecture over. Myron B |
Thanks Myron
This is my first quietline, i've got a 128 and 125 that i've restored and had for years. I use the 125 weekly. I didn't know about the motor (iso mount) ground....thats good information. The past few years i've looked at buying a new mower, just haven't ran into anything i like as much as the 125. Picked up the 1450 because it had a tiller....guy wanted it out of his yard so i helped him out. Heres a pic of the 128 way back when i re-did it...i only take it out of the garage on occasion. http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v7...k/jan19009.jpg Thanks again for the excellent lecture. Metal |
Very good lecture, Myron!
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Metal Rain" Since the QL 1450 is new to you, I recommend that you pull the engine and make the Iso-Bar upgrade... look in the tech section for this - its on page 3 under "Quietline Motor Rail Modification"...I do this for all my QL's.
Myron B |
There is a safety switch on the clutch which doesn't go bad very often but it has a metal bracket that comes off the clutch shaft to energise the switch and that metal bracket sometimes breaks.
The most common problem is the PTO switch. It has to be in the off position for the starter to engage and sometimes the contacts get intermittent in the off position. Hold the start switch on and wiggle the PTO switch and sometimes that will energise the safety circuit. |
Gentlemen;
Got some time to work on the 1450. Cleaned all the bigger electrical connections, made sure all the grounds were cleaned and tight. Turns over good now with plenty of spark. Checked the wiring out, its all original, can't find any spliced up wires, its all in excellent condition. After a few rotations i noticed gas pouring out of the carb, so i didn't get it to fire. I checked out the pto switch as mentioned below....with it in the on position, it will not turn over....off, it spins free, so it looks like thats working. I'll take a look at the carb today... Appreciate all the good info. Metalrain |
Well, i got the 1450 running...after 4 years of sitting. Lots of smoke but i kinda knew that going in. I'm surprised everything works...the electric pto worked as it should. The hydraulic lift ran smooth....lots of vibration at a higher idle.
I will tear it all down in the next few weeks, rework the engine, and get it looking good. I'll update as i go along. Heres what it looks like now... http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v7...cub1450006.jpg Metalrain |
Nice work, metalrain! Glad you got your 1450 going. Thanks for the pic. :beerchug:
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metalrain,
Good job. You have a good looking tractor. Personally I like the head lights. It would cost a bit to put them on. I'm looking forward to your updates.:beerchug: |
Gentlemen:
Able to breakdown some of the 1450 over the last few days. Pulled the motor and found the rubber mounts trashed ofcourse. The left rear oil pan bolt worked its way out over the years and hollowed out the hole enough to where i need a new pan. I want to go cast iron. Will any 12-14-16hp kohler pan work? or do i need to be 14hp specific? I found this thing setting in a scrap iron pile....told its been there for 4 or 5 years....its actually one of the cleanest cubs i've come across...nothing has been molested...check out the wiring... http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v7...cub1450001.jpg http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v7...cub1450013.jpg this is the way it came...haven't cleaned it yet..not alot of dirt or oil... http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v7...cub1450016.jpg The engine bay is a different story... http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v7...cub1450015.jpg Well, almost non molested...whats up with the weld? http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v7...cub1450010.jpg Rear pan and fender in excellent shape...except for the battery box... http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v7...cub1450017.jpg This is how it sets now...not a complete teardown, but enough to get it cleaned up...i'll tear into the motor and see what that looks like.... http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v7...cub1450021.jpg Metalrain |
:bigthink:
I would like to see a better image of the back end of your tractor. Looks like you have a very unique setup there. It appears that there is a Cat 0 3 PT hitch and a tiller bracket. |
Don't know much about it...it came with a tiller...guy said he used the tiller all the time and it worked good...
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v7...cub1450004.jpg http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v7...cub1450002.jpg http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v7...b1450001-1.jpg Metalrain |
Wild Bill;
No, it wont be a complete restoration. I'll check the motor out and see what that needs, hopefully maybe just a set of rings. I've torn it down as far as i'm gonna....clean the frame up good, give it a quick paint job (basecoat/clearcoat) and call it good. I plan to use it to do alittle tilling....maybe some mowing (i use a 125 now to do the bulk mowing).....i cant see putting more than 15 to 20 hours a year on it....but you know how it goes....things can change quickly. I have a good aluminum pan, is it worth putting that back on? Will lock-tite keep the pan bolts in place? or is it a must to put a cast iron pan on? Thanks guys Metalrain |
Someone had welded the 3 point hitch setup on the back...however they did not mess up anything that I can see. If it were me, while I had it apart I would cut it off the frame at the welds, grind the welds back down, repaint, then fabricate a mounting bracket to mount the 3 point hitch to the rear. It's a nice setup that I would keep for sure.
On the stripped threads don't leave out the option of a helicoil, there is another type of threaded insert that is also very strong, but I forget the name. A helicoil done correct is stronger than a tapped hole, that's in steel, so it would definitely be stronger in aluminum. I also have a 1450, and my motor needed a lot of money spent on it, I still have it for suture use I hope one day, however I'm going back with a B&S Vanguard I had on hand, 18 HP I hope it will turn out well I really like the 1450. Mine also has headlights, and I didn't find the bad motor until I spent lots of money on wiring, switch, drive shaft etc, now I will have to redo all of that. Clint |
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You will not have any problems with a aluminum pan once you correct the ISO mounts, from what I have seen, along with reading The ISO mounts being bad, deteriorated, "gone", "almost gone", pretty much gone is what causes the bolt to waller out the threaded holes. Don't forget to read over the tech section, do that engine cradle upgrade.... that will lengthen the life of the ISO mounts Be sure to check your drive shaft when you finish the ISO mounts, odds are it needs some attention, you can get by cheap on this if you do it yourself, and you can also choose a premium material for the drive shaft. You have a great 1450 to start with. Mine looks just about like yours, paint may be just a bit better, but yours has a few things that are better than mine. I also like the head lights, mine came with them as well, I reckon our 1450 are sisters both being built in 76... tis a good year I was born that year as well. |
Thanks for the info Clint...
As for the hitch, the frame has 3 bolt holes on each side that line up on the left side with the hitch, but not on the right side. I think it would be just a matter of drilling three holes in the side of the hitch on the right side to mount it correctly. You mention that the drive shaft might need attention...what exactly would i be looking for? You also mention to choose a premium material??? do i need to build a new drive shaft?? Guess i'm not real sure what i need to look for when it comes to the drive shaft. Metalrain |
Gentlemen:
Got a chance to look at the motor. The little bit of history i have on it is vague. The guy parked it because it was smoking quite a bit and bought a new craftsman....(go figure). He said what he could recall was, it never burned oil, then one day, it just started smoking, he used it a few other times after that, then just parked it. I did get it running, and it did smoke, but no knocks or noises....seemed to run good...started easily...i"m hoping to get by with the minimum and not a whole lot of machine work. Heres what the insides look like...hope somebody can take a guess as to what this thing needs. The one valve is black and looks like its covered in oil http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v7...cub1450025.jpg http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v7...cub1450023.jpg The head http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v7...cub1450032.jpg Cylinder walls look good...no scoring, or scratches, if you look hard, you can almost see some cross hatching, but the piston has a major oil depsoit on top of it. http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v7...cub1450029.jpg http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v7...cub1450026.jpg i'll tear the bottom off today and see what the crank/rod look like today....anybody know whats going on with the valves and all the oil? Thanks again for the help Metalrain |
The valve guides might be loose...after you remove the valvesprings, stick the valves back in and try to wiggle them side to side. If there's play, that could be part of the problem.
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Metalrain, MattG:
Take a good look at the top of the block...it's obvious that it had a blown headgasket - the likely culprit of it all....Blow a head gasket and the engine wil smoke for sure...and the likely cause of "it just started smoking all of a sudden" but still runs ...hmmmm Myron B |
Gentlemen;
Well....strange things...got the piston out...crank looks excellent, along with the rod http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v7...cub1450005.jpg But...the top side of the piston is chewed up down to the top ring...wasn't noticeable untill the piston was out.... http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v7...b1450010-1.jpg http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v7...b1450009-3.jpg So what do you thing caused all that???? The cylinder wall is fine....i can detect one small scratch, but cant pick it up with a fingernail....also, there might have been something going on with the head gasket...on the block and head if you look close, one side is brown, the other side is clear...i will check the valves for side to side movement, but real curious as to what would have caused the piston damage. Thanks guys Metalrain |
Does the damage to the piston coincide with the carbon deposits on top and the side that faces the blown part of the head gasket?
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Matt:
The bad side of the piston is facing the valves...as for a "blown head gasket" I've never seen one, so i don't quite know what i'm looking for there...the gasket is intact, its just dis-colored on the left side...and clear on the other side, like something maybe blowing thru the dis-colored side. There was lots of oil/grease buildup on the left side of the block/head....pretty clean on the right side... http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v7...b1450025-1.jpg Metalrain |
A blown head gasket means a leaking head gasket. Rarely do they ever blow pieces of it out. I've seen it once...see that oily mess on the gasket surface that faces the PTO end of the engine? It was blowing oil out through there.
I think that piston damage may have been caused by all that carbon buildup, which was probably caused by the blown head gasket. Every time the engine was run, the expanding gases on the compression stroke probably pushed some of the carbon debris down between the piston and bore in that area. I took apart a twin cylinder engine that had pistons that looked like that all the way around. That thing had 2 blown head gaskets, and finally threw a rod before I got it. |
Most Kohlers I've rebuilt have the piston burnt in the same area. The white on top of the exhaust valve tells me that the motor was on the lean side when it was running. The hottest area in the combustion chamber is the area between the exhaust valve and the top side of the piston that was burnt. The piston is made from alunimun and block is made from cast iron. Cast iron can take more heat before it starts to melt.
There should be a number or letters stamp on top of the piston. Odds are you find the letters "std" which stands for standard. If the piston has "std" it could be the orginal one. |
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Do your Cub a favor.....rebuild it's motor the right way. I replace the following things when I rebuild one: piston/rings connecting rod governor gear (plastic version) comeplete gasket set head bolts |
Yup Merk...i'll replace all the parts mentioned. The piston had a number stamped on it...something like 436702....but i didn't see the "std" on it anywhere, so i'm assuming its standard. Appreciate the help on this project.
Metalrain |
Same exact problem my 1450 had with the worn side of piston, is the Kohler weak spot. I think it's the way it pushes the piston up, or maybe the off balance, whatever it is it's the wear point on Kohler K series or the 14 HP anyway. I bet you get lucky, and the bore is perfect, only the aluminum piston being wore.
check rubber flex disk on the drive shaft, also if it's bad rusty, or you just want to do a nice upgrade that you will no longer have to worry with the drive shaft get some Stainless round or 4140 round stock 5/8" diameter, and you can build a nice drive shaft that will last forever. When the motor mounts go it puts undue stress on the rubber flex disk, my rubber flex disk (rag joints) were shot and my ISO mounts were in good shape |
Gentlemen:
Waiting on engine parts, weather turning colder tomorrow, decided to do a quick frame paint on the 1450 while i can still do it outside....cleaned and degreased the frame, sanded a few areas, used a rust converter, and taped a few things off..... http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v7...ar1958/005.jpg http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v7...1958/001-2.jpg Two coats of mp170 epoxy... http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v7...ar1958/007.jpg http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v7...ar1958/011.jpg http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v7...ar1958/009.jpg cool thing about epoxy...its a wet on wet application... let it flash, then two coats of white basecoat (cool vanilla, chrysler newer 300's off white....sorry...not a purist... http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v7...ar1958/016.jpg http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v7...ar1958/015.jpg http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v7...ar1958/013.jpg http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v7...ar1958/012.jpg I'm giving the white base 30 minutes dry time...i'll tape it off, then spray the yellow....(dodge viper yellow...sorry again...just ain't a purist).... Metalrain |
I'd clean off that hydraulic cylinder rod before you use it again, or the paint will tear up the (non-replaceable) seal in the cylinder.
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Nice job, Metalrain! Thanks for the update. :beerchug:
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Basecoat is on....just waiting to clear
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v7...ar1958/025.jpg http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v7...ar1958/019.jpg Clearcoat sprayed..... http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v7...ar1958/032.jpg http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v7...ar1958/029.jpg engine bay cleaned up.... http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v7...ar1958/027.jpg http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v7...ar1958/030.jpg I'll paint the bigger stuff next weekend, fenders/hood etc...etc...waiting on an overhaul kit so i can put the engine back together. I did order the solid iso mounts...thought i'd try them and see what happens. i'll let you know... Metalrain |
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