Problem Starting Engine: Please Help
 

Hello
I have a 1045 LTX that is 3 years old. I was mowing last week for a couple hours without issue. I got off the tractor to open a gate and the tractor just shut off and I couldn't turn it back on. Wasn't clicking or even trying to turn over. Back story: This summer I have had to jump the battery using my car several times despite using a trickle charger. Perhaps the battery is no longer holding a charge.

So after this happened the other day I tried jumping it again and it kept trying to turn over steadily with wheel on top of engine spinning. It never sounded like it was flooding and there was no clicking sound. It only did this if connected to the car. If i tried starting it without the car, it did nothing at all, no clicking, not attempting to turn over. Was as if there was no battery in it at all and wasn't trying to do anything. Hook it back up to the car and it kept trying. Spark plug looked okay. Thought maybe the battery was just too dead to hold a charge. Got a new one and still doing same thing trying to turn over, this time it is doing so without being hooked up to the car.

So obviously the battery is playing a part because with a new battery it is doing what it would do hooked to the car with the old battery but for some reason it just won't turn all the way over.

Any thoughts as to what is going on or where I should be looking/what I should be doing?

Any help is very much appreciated!
thanks
eric

Solenoid possibly getting weak...
Where are you jumping it?
Did you pull a plug to see if you are getting spark?

First of all :Welcome2:

Ok. The battery going dead could have played a role in the machine dying. It sounds pretty obvious that a new battery helped. Here are some things to keep in mind

1.) The ignition system is a magneto, so it requires NO VOLTAGE to run. The key grounds it to kill the motor. Along with ANY other safety device. (I.E. brake switch, clutch switch, seat switch.....)
2.) This motor has a fuel shut-off solenoid, called the "afterfire solenoid" in the electrical schematic. This DOES require voltage to work. IF, the battery went dead, and it dropped that solenoid, it would die. ALSO, if that solenoid went bad, it will die and will not restart.
3.) There are like a million safety switches that can kill the motor.

Here is what I suggest:
1.) Disconnect the "kill" wire from the magneto and see if it will start.
If it does: Find the problem in that circuit.
If it does not: Hook it back up, and go to #2
2.) Check to see if the fuel solenoid at the carb is getting power.
If it is: Check to see that the solenoid is working. If you hold your hand on it and turn on the key, you should feel it "click".
2A.) Another way, is to remove it carefully (It will have a spring) take the plunger out, and reinstall it. Then try to start it again. If it runs, the solenoid is bad. Replace it.
If it is not getting power: Test that circuit and find/repair the failure.

Cranking issue:

1.) The motor has a compression release, it may be bad.
2.) Check/ clean all power and ground connections. Make sure specifically, that the ones at the battery, starter solenoid, and starter are good.
3.) It is possible the starter is weak, or you didn't buy a large enough battery. They have a horsepower rating on them usually.

If you try all this, and still have no luck, or have questions, come back and we'll try to help! :beerchug:

hey jonathan,
thanks for reply. forgive my ignorance on this stuff...while i understand what you are saying, it is a bit over my head. where is the magneto to find the kill switch i should disconnect? and if that as suggested doesn't work where is the fuel solenoid? can you point me to schematics as the manual does not get this in depth? once i find the solenoid if i hold it and it is clicking that means it is getting power correct?
thank you so MUCH!!!!
eric

Ok. Here we go.

The magneto is under the engine cover but there should be a place that it can be disconnected. It is a yellow wire that will run up under the upper shroud, on one side or the other of the motor.... On this model, probably on the right side.

Here is where the magneto is.... It's #16
Attachment 39984

The fuel shut-off solenoid is located on the bottom side of the carburetor bowl. It will have a wire running to it. On this pic, it is not listed separately, but it can be purchased separately from the carb. I circled it in red.
Attachment 39985

The schematic can be found here. Right click on the image and tell it to "open in a new window". That will make it large enough to read.

Yes, generally. I have seen them "click" but something in the carb was blocking the fuel flow. Even if it is clicking it is a good idea to pull it. That way you can clean the carb bowl and make sure that there's nothing blocking the jet that the solenoid opens.

You can find all parts pics on Cub Cadets main page, or you can go to partstree.com. I use parts tree because, on my PC, it loads quicker. I don't suggest you buy from there though, because they tend to be a little higher than cadet.

Your welcome! Good luck! :beerchug:

ThANK YOU!
 

Thank you Jonathan for the VERY thoughtful and detailed response! I am going to take a look now and see what I can find out. I'll let you know!
eric

UPDATE: see attached photos
 

Hey Jonathan
Please see the attached photos. I am quite certain I know what the carb solenoid is. Not sure if I felt it clicking. Want to make sure before I pull it off. The magneto to me is not as easy to find. Is it what I am pointing to in the photo? I couldn't find any yellow wire under the upper shroud...
I also attached a shot of the entire right side of the engine in case you need to point me to it.
The other new finding is that this morning when I turn the key to try and get it to start over is that all it is doing is clicking under the seat? Is that the starter? The engine wheel is not spinning anymore when I turn the key like it was previously. I am doing this with the new battery in but the battery light on the dash is lighting up. I hope I didn't kill this new battery in the process of trying to turn this thing over.
Thanks again for all your help!
eric

Eric,
You are correct in the pics. Yes, that is the magneto, and the fuel solenoid. The battery light on the dash will be on until the engine is running and the alternator is charging. Before you go too deep, clean the connections first and see if the motor starts cranking better. I'm going to be working but I'll check in every so often and see if you need help. :beerchug:

When I pulled them apart they seemed like very clean connections. No rust or dirt or corrosion. With that what next? And why yesterday was the engine wheel spinning when I turned the key and today I only hear the clicking under the seat area when I turn the key (yesterday there was no clicking at all)?
Thank you so much! I am going out for a while so won't be working on this for the rest of the day so dont feel rushed to get back to me. Your advice has been very helpful so far so looking forward to what your thoughts are.
Thanks again!
Eric

The clicking you hear is the starter solenoid. It is located under the seat.

I circled the solenoid, and the arrow point to where it is located. You will probably have to remove either the battery, or the fenders to get to it.
Attachment 40000

You need to check the solenoid for loose wires/ bad connections. They do fail, and usually are a universal type and can be picked up at most parts stores for under $20. Good thing to try as it is a lot cheaper than a starter.

More places to look for bad connections:

*Trace the ground wire from the battery to where it bolts to the frame. Clean this point with sandpaper.
*Check the connections at the solenoid. Look for wires that appear to have been hot. They will be discolored.
*Check the connection at the starter.
#1 Problem with these machines is they really don't have heavy enough wire from : Battery (-) to the frame, and it actually should run to the motor; and from Battery (+) to solenoid, and from solenoid to the starter. I personally think that is why the starters don't seem to last long. However, I am not suggesting you replace them with larger wire, unless they look damaged. But, if replacement is necessary, I would use the next size gauge wire.

It is very possible that the starter is starting to fail. There really isn't a very good test for this. At least not without some special tools.
One thing you can do, as a test for the parts of the system between the battery and starter is to get your jumper cables, hook one end to the cables to the battery, and the other end to the motor like this. (see pic) LISTEN CAREFULLY: Disconnect the battery wires first!! Hook one end of the cables to the battery first, then attach the other end of the Positive jumper cable wire to the post where the RED wire is attached to the starter. MAKE SURE IT IS ONLY TOUCHING THE POST AND NOT THE STARTER BODY! It will SPARK if it touches the body!!! Then, open the jaws of the negative and grab the spot of the motor in the pic. IT WILL START CRANKING! and will continue to until you disconnect. This bypasses all circuits! If the motor cranks fine, you have wiring issues. If it doesn't, you either have a weak battery, or a bad starter. Charge battery and try again. Do this ONLY as a last test before replacing the starter!!

Attachment 40001

Some things to be aware of while working on any machine:
*Don't crank the starter for more than about 15-20 seconds.
*Since your starter on this machine is easy to reach, carefully touch it if you have been cranking a while on it. If it gets hot, STOP, and let it cool. You can "burn" it up.
* If the motor doesn't fire after 2 or 3 15 second cranks...... It's probably not going to start. Keep looking for the problem.
*Don't run the engine very long with the top cover off of it. The motor will overheat. 1-2 min is long enough!

Update
 

Hey Jonathan
Thank you so much! Wires and connections all look clean and tight so I tried the bypass method you recommend and it didn't work with the new battery so I tried it with another older battery and it worked! Engine started cranking. Battery I just bought seems to be dead.
So you are saying that because this worked I have wiring issues? Since I couldn find any loose or dirty connections what do you think?
Is it possible that it is still the starter then?
Thanks! You're the best!
eric

Try recharging your new battery. If it still doesn't work, you either need a bigger one, or that one is bad. It happens. Put the old battery (that you used for testing) in the machine and see if it will crank it with the battery hooked up. If it works, then you just have a battery issue.

Update
 

Hey Jonathan
So I have the new battery on my trickle charger. It is a 12 V that i purchased from SEARS where they sell them for lawn tractors. Is it possible that I drained it from trying to turn the engine over?
Anyway, I did as you suggested: took the older battery that worked when I did the bypass "hot-wire" as you recommended (keeping in mind that by worked it cranked the engine spinning the wheel but never fully started) and re-connected it. Turned the key and absolutely nothing happened; no cranking, no clicking of starter.

So with that said what does this tell you? Remind me, when doing the bypass hot-wire what was I bypassing again? Was it the starter? Whatever it was is probably where the issue lies since the battery was working without it.
Thanks for schooling me! Once I have the new battery charged I will try re-connecting it and possibly even doing the bypass with it.
eric

Ok Eric,
By using the jumper cables, you were bypassing the ENTIRE electrical system, but, by doing so we learned two things. We learned that the starter is good, and that the battery is good. Or, at least the older battery you used. Yes, it is possible that you just ran the new one dead. Although they are supposed to be, a new battery is seldom fully charged.

Where to go from here:
Now we need to do some testing. Do you own a test light? And a multi-meter?
Attachment 40024

If you don't, go to a parts store tomorrow and buy them. You can get an analog multi-meter for about 10$-$15 and a test light shouldn't even be $10. We can probably get by without the multi-meter for now, but we really need the test light.

You don't have to thank me so much....... it isn't fixed YET.

Gotcha
 

Okay, I follow...I work all day tomorrow and it being Sunday not sure that I will be able to pick up till early in the week. My dad MAY have a multimeter...I don't believe he has a light meter though.
You mentioned at one point that if I put the battery in that worked via bypass and it also worked connected normally, that if it cranks then I just have a battery issue. Since it didn't something else is involved and that's where the light meter and multi-meter will help diagnose, correct?
thank you for simply taking the time to walk through this! Realizing it isn't fixed yet but just the fact that you are so generous with your time and knowledge means a lot, regardless of the outcome!
eric

Yes :ThumbsUp:

The test light is more user friendly, but we may need the meter too.

Quick Question
 

Is it better to get the light meter at an auto parts store or someplace like home depot or lowes?
Also, with new battery charged up again it cranks/engine wheel turns both by turning the key and by bypass jumping; but it still doesn't turn over. Looking forward to next step.
Thanks
eric

In following this thread I don’t see that we have verified that the engine has spark. Just my 2 cents but since you have the blower shroud off and the mag is accessible I would remove the kill wire (the white wire you are pointing to in your pic), pull the spark plug and lay it against the block and then crank it over and see if you have spark. You should also be able to find out if the engine is pumping air out of the spark plug hole at the same time. If you have spark but it’s not making compression you have bigger problems with this engine. Oh and it’s not a light meter, it’s called a test light. One end has a probe that you put against the circuit you are testing the other end is a ground wire with an alligator clip that you attach to ground. If the circuit has power the light lights up very simple. Any auto parts store should have a test light.

I guess he didn't see post 2!?

So, you did get it to crank with the key? ..... Your wording is contradictory.....

:ThumbsUp:

With the new battery re-charged it cranked using bypass method and hot-wire method but won't fully turn over to a running engine.
Leadslingingdaddy: I did miss that amidst all the posting. Sorry and thank you as well!
Jonathan and Sam Mac: I will try what you recommend. So when you lay the plug on the block am I trying to crank with the key or using the bypass hot wire method, or doesn't it matter?
Still need to pick up a light meter. There isn't an auto parts store between home and work and needed to get home today right after work. I'll hopefully get one soon. The grass is starting to get high! It's raining anyway so I wouldn't even be able to mow.
Thanks all!
eric

Quick update
 

see my previous post first but I did just have the battery connected and used the key to crank with the spark plug out. There is plenty of air coming out of the spark plug hole. I am guessing that I need to bypass/hotwire the machine to see if I can get spark out of the plug but I want to verify with you guys before I try it. Is it possible that all of this is the result of a combination of a bad spark plug coupled with dead batteries (or at least ones that aren't holding a charge)? Maybe I should get a new plug even though this one doesn't look to bad.
Thanks
eric

The first thing you need to do is get it cranking with the key. I had you bypass only to test the starter and battery to make sure they are good. If it will crank with the key, do it that way ALWAYS. No need to bypass anymore, that test is done. If it won't crank with the key, we have other problems that need fixed first before we proceed.

It cranks using the key but it doesn't turn over. Based on the advice Sam Mac gave he mentioned putting the plug on the engine block to see if I have spark in it. How is that possible if not bypass hot wiring? I have it sitting on the block when I used the key to crank it and the spark plug did nothing, as I would expect.
Thanks!
eric

If you did as I suggested and removed the white wire from the mag and you have no spark when cranking it only 2 possibilities bad mag or bad spark plug. She's a no a gonna go with a no spark.

Ok. Lets clear up some terms. "Cranks over", "Cranks", "Turns over" all mean the same thing. When the starter actually starts the motor, it is called running. Don't say "it cranks, but won't won't turn over" it is a contradiction of terms.

Go back up and read my and Sam's posts. We said to disconnect the wire that runs to the mag and test.

Gotcha. Thanks for clarifying. The engine cranks with key. Does not run.
I actually forgot to disconnect the wire as suggested the first time. Just did so now, turned the key and the engine cranked but the spark plug (lying in the engine block) did not spark. Bad spark plug?
Thanks for schooling me. I have learned a lot!
You guys are the doctors or engines. Too bad mechanics don't get paid nearly enough or the same as doctors!
eric

OK assuming that you had the metal portion of the spark plug in contact with the metal of the engine as you cranked it and you got no spark then as I said bad plug or bad mag. Since a spark plug is a couple dollars and the Mag is more like $40 (just a guess) I'd go and pick up a plug and try it. any auto parts store should be able to hook you up. If that doesn't work then it's time for a new mag. Not a big deal to replace, 2 screws and just set the gap properly.

Thanks Sam! I did have the plug in contact with the metal and actually tried it in several locations on the block just to make sure. What and where is the mag?
I really appreciate everyone's time and advice.
eric

:bash2::bash2: Yeah...... if that was the case, I'd be a millionaire!!! A lot of years before I retire, and I've been doing this too long already!

Follow the spark plug wire back to the thing you unplugged the white wire from and you will have found the mag.

As in MAGneto! Thanks! Will try the plug first.
eric

Update
 

Finally got to the store to pick up a new spark plug. Did not spark while lying it on block with magneto kill switch disconnected and engine cranking. Did not go from cranking to running with plug installed. Based on previous posts my next option is the magneto. Is this something (as in a magneto for a lawn tractor) something that I can purchase at any auto parts store or what do you suggest? Do all magnetos look pretty much the same?
Thanks!
eric

You have to get one for your specific engine. Some auto parts stores con order/keep them. You will need make, model, type, code, serial number from your engine.

from the engine itself or the numbers that are stamped on top of the black plastic piece that is in the center of the magneto?
thanks
eric

i think i found it on the CC web-site. now i just need to be able to find one locally. my lawn will be a jungle if i have to order it and have it shipped! will check the local cub cadet dealer repair shop.

Just a couple points. The two bolts that hold the mag to the engine are pointed out in yellow. When you put the new one on make sure you get the clearance between the magnet on the flywheel and the legs of the magneto correct. Don’t know if the instructions will come with it or not. They used to come with the mags for a Briggs.

Checked all the LTX1045's according to the Cub parts site they all use the same Mag or as they call it the ignition module part number KH-20-584-03-S
Flywheel magnet Green arrow
Ignition module Red arrow

Man open the shed doors!!! Too many vapors are being taken in...!!!

I always thought the flywheel magnet was on the flywheel????

Step back from the wet bar!

Somebody must not of had their coffee this mornin!