Fall overseeding
 

I'm starting to get my 1450 ready for the fall when I will need to overseed the lawn. My front lawn gets about 10-12 hours of full sun and with water at $10/768 gallons here, watering is not something that can be done too often, so by the time fall comes the lawn looks a little tired. Got a hold of a 3 pt aerator and a walk-behind dethatcher/verticutter so I'm ready to go equipment wise. Still undecided between Lesco and Bullseye tall fescue seed, might spend the extra dollars and go with the Bullseye since it's the top performer in my area in NTEP tests. The thing that puzzles me, is the correct procedure for overseeding. I have been reading forum after forum, page after page, and advice is plentiful for contradictory:

- Dethatch first to increase the change of seed to soil contact.
- Don't dethatch, it's not recommended or needed for tall fescue.
- Dethatch then aerate then seed so the seeds can go in the holes.
- Aerate then seed then dethatch to break up the plugs.
- Seed first then aerate and dethatch.
- Fertilize at the same time you put down the seed.
- Never fertilize at the same time as putting down the seed, wait until the new grass starts to come out.
etc. etc.

I finally found the North Carolina Cooperative Extension site, where you can "ask and expert". Great I thought, let me get some advice from the pros. Some lady answered me and said to till the whole lawn :bash:. I may have some dry spots but that's hardly necessary. So what do you all do when it's time to overseed?

I'm going to give you my opinion. This is based on years of farming, and also from my experience seeding grass. But, I'm afraid I'm just going to be just another opinion.

1.) NEVER fertilize and seed at the same time. The fertilizer can kill the germination of the seed. Always wait till grass is growing to fertilize. (I suggest in the spring.)
2.) I don't de-thatch.....ever. I think it's a waste of time if you are going to core it. Or if you aerate.

I'd mow it short and sweep the lawn. (No clippings to inhibit the core aerator.) Then core it. Then seed it. (Because for whatever reason, seed seems to grow better in the ground.) The next step is choice, I think any of the following is ok: Either use a dethatcher to "scuff" the dirt/cores to cover the seed. Or you could use a spike aerator. Or, use a lawn roller. No matter what, end with rolling it with a lawn roller. Doesn't have to be heavy, just something to firm the seed bed. Plus, it will help break up the left over cores. Then water it everyday. I don't know what kind of soil you have, but I use a grass seed blend from my local (farm) seed store. It's a blend of fescue grasses, rye grass and Kentucky Bluegrass. It does very well because the seed that grows best in the different soil/sunlight/shade/dry areas thrives, and the other grasses die off. That way, you get a uniform looking coverage, and don't have to seed differently. I pay about $150 a bag for the seed.

That's my take on it! :beerchug:

A farmer I am not, nor a expert on lawn seeding. Soooooooooooooo,

IMO. Only

I was told years ago that de-thatching is good for a lawn in the spring & fall & then mow the snot out of it. This helps a established lawn catch a breath of fresh air from the compacted clippings that accumulate from all the cutting one does.

I de-thatch my lawn this way & seems good. So I do it. When I 1st., started doing this the thatch if picked up would fill the cart 2x's.. That's a lot of compacted clippings. If anything this gives me more seat time & gives my feeble mind a feeling of doing something good & helping my lawn.

I would think that seeding would benefit a lawn better in the spring to promote new growth rather than fall? Why would one drop seed & just let it set all winter? Breaking up the soil somewhat & then seeding in the spring with some natural wetness would be better?

Like I said I'm no expert but.........?

NIK,

Thanks Nik. I think the reason overseeding is done mid-september rather than spring is to allow the grass a few good months of growth and root development before the summer heat hits. It's worth mentioning that tall fescue as a cool season grass actually continues to develop it's root system through the winter. Or so I've heard :bigthink:

I think one of the biggest complaints I've seen with core aerating before seeding is that a bunch of seeds tend to go in the hole and then the grass grows in clumps. Is that something you've seen happen using this method or is it mostly FUD?

I'd like to mix some KBG with tall fescue, just not sure if it would survive the summer on just rain...

X2


I believe that can happen. It's been a while since I worked at the golf course during high school breaks, but I think after aerating they would slit seed to get more uniform growth.

Bill

It's kind of like winter wheat Nik. Seed in the fall, seeds germinate, but don't grow much. (Like j4c11 said, root development.) Then, in the spring, it comes to life and grows up with the rest of the grass. If you wait till spring, then you will have to be on the new seed mowing while the new is trying to grow. It can be done in the spring, but I prefer to overseed in the fall. Reseeding can be done in either the fall or spring.


That's why I run something else over after seeding, like a spike aerator. I haven't ever tried a dethatcher because I was always afraid it would leave "lines" where there was no grass. I think the key is the roller. Firms the seed into the soil, even if it isn't covered. Then, when it rains or during watering, less chance it washes into the holes. As long as you have the seeder set right, and firm it in, it shouldn't collect in the holes.

This is what you really need. I'm wanting to build a smaller version. It is for reseeding, or overseeding.

Attachment 52915

I dont dethach unless there is high thatch buildup (my current lawn doesnt have much thatch buildup at all). But now that I think about it I dont think I would dethach, since you are going to aerate or slit or some other such method.

Getting the seed in firm contact with the soil is key to germinating. And it has to be kept moist during this time. So for me in the Northeast, starting too late in the Fall doesnt give it enough time to get going before Winter (and early/late summer is too big a risk of not enough water/rain, unless sprinklers are used).

I have had good luck with the slitters to churn the soil up a bit and give a place for the seed to wash into the soil. I dont roll it though (would, and think its a good idea, but just dont have a roller). The slitter (ran in crossing diagonal pattern) cuts small rows for the seed to get down into and then the rain washes the loose soil over it.

Seed on the surface is a complete waste. Any spots that you cant get into the soil I like mulching over with peat moss, it holds the moisture in well.

I wouldnt use fertilizer. And definitely do not use a weed and feed, since these suppress germination.

These methods are VERY
regional
and
seasonal

My first lawn was in Massachusetts, and I thought I knew EVERYTHING about lawncare, the cool evenings REALLY promoted grass growth,,, :biggrin2:

I moved to Virginia, and found I could not grow grass!! :bigthink:

The peroids of heat, and dry conditions of Virginia, as well as sand, makes it difficult to grow grass.

In Virginia, I never dethatch, the thatch decays faster than I can grow grass.

In Virginia, SUPER tall grass promotes grass growth, because the tall grass shades the soil.

In Virginia, only spring and fall seeding is possible, the seed will rot before it can sprout in the summer,,,

I could seed in a snow storm in the winter and get better germination than in July or August.

Actually, seeding just before a snow storm is a pretty good time to seed, it packs the seed tight against the soil....

Oh, yea, the tilling,,, do it this time of the year, and you will be lucky to get a few weeds to sprout,,,, before September!! :bigeyes:

Anybody got the PH# of a good sod farm!!?? :Huh:

:OhOh:

I think the conditions here in Greensboro are similar to VA , sandy soil and hot summers. All my fescue went dormant, it's in direct sun at temperatures between 90-100 degrees and on a 20 degree slope. Now I wish I hadn't sprayed weed killer in the spring, the weeds have no problem staying green.

I've done some more research on the Craftsman "dethatcher" I bought a while back. It is made my MTD and was sold for a short period under the Craftsman brand. The blades look exactly like this:

https://r6ezhq.by3301.livefilestore....W7s/blades.JPG

Tried to look up the blades by the part number on eBay, only to find that MTD is selling this machine all over Europe as a verticutter rather than a dethatcher. Took it out to the back to try it out, it completely destroyed the existing grass, the final result looked something like this:

http://www.savvygardener.com/images/...icut_small.jpg


Definitely get plenty of seed to soil contact, but I'm not sure the existing grass will survive. Kind of skeptical of using it now.

Good thread, I'm learning a lot from you guys. Lets just say my lawn is challenged. I can kill it fast but getting it to grow is an issue.

You definently have a tuff growing season. I would look into a summer/drought blend grass.
I'm sure Scotts and other seed producers have some sort of blend. If you use mulching blades and don't cut grass that's 6 inches tall you shouldn't have any thatch build up..
But I thatch not to brake it up but to scratch the dirt/sold and pick up the blades of grass so the grass seed gets to the ground. Then use a drag rake to (old fence) level everything out. You should use a roller to get the seed contact with the ground. Water once to get the seed going. I don't think you need to core aerate before seeding.
Also leave the grass 3.5 to 4 inches high.. Keeps the soil cooler and moist longer. Plus it helps to keep the weed seeds from germinating.
Just my .02$

I overseeded last fall with Rebel Southern Blend, it was the first to go since it was young grass without a well established root system.It contains Rebel 4 and Rebel Exeda cultivars, which are fairly highly rated. I don't think there's any fescue type that will withstand these conditions without going dormant. KBG is better about full sun but requires more water. I'm considering adding 10% KBG this year, although it's not recommended for this area. But I'm definitely going to give it my best and use Bullseye seed, which is the top performer for the area in NTEP tests. Maybe I should look into replacing Tall Fescue with Zoysia.

Are you being serious? Will the seed actually come up in the spring?

It would probably take the heat and lack of water better.....

No different than planting winter wheat or winter rye. Grass seed is cool like that. :cool:

Why does everyone in the midwest make such a big deal about getting it out in the spring and covering it with hay and watering it and everything then? Seems like a huge PITA so I never bothered...

If I knew I could just toss it on the ground on a clear day in January I'd have been planting some more grass long ago!

You cover with straw. Hay will grow..... :bigeyes:

It's really NBD. Works too! The straw isn't for the seed. It's for the soil. So it doesn't wash away until the grass is established. It also starts the thatch bed.

Shows what I know about the topic!

I just watch what my neighbors are doing and I'm like "it grows fast enough"... Now I have some places that I must repair due to plumbing issues.

January it is!

I would encourage you to do some research before you seed to avoid wasted time and money. Generally cool season grasses should be seeded in September, maybe sooner if you're living in a cooler area. The reason is to allow the grass time to develop a root system before next summer hits. Also, if you're waiting for the seed to sprout in the spring you won't be able to apply any kind of pre-emergent, and the weeds will also grow at will smothering your grass. This seems to be a good resource for your area:

http://www.agry.purdue.edu/turf/homeowner.html

An important thread because, well, if the grass doesn't grow fast and thick then we would need fewer tractors......

That's it, I'm selling my Supers and installing astro turf. :biggrin2:

Seeding during a snow storm is identical to what nature does, only you have better control of the variety of seed being put down, seed spacing, soil conditions (tilling, fertilizer etc)

I had EXCELLENT results after doing exactly that in New England,,,, also, usually the soil stays moist.


As far as putting down hay to establish grass when it is warm, I have found the hay is adding locally grown grass seed (and weed seed,, :crap:) at a rate that you would not normally put down.

The grass seed from the hay is usually local, therefore proven to be a good growing variety in your area.

The hay puts down LOTS of seed, normally adding more seed is a waste of money, but, some insurance there is plenty of seed.

I have never had a failure when putting down hay, something comes up, and it is always thick.

Are you talking about a lawn or a pasture? :bigthink:

I'm lazy.. I'm literally going to just throw down some seed in the middle of the winter before a big storm and see what happens in the spring!

I won't spend much seed/money on the experiment.... but if it works, it could revolutionize what has been going on up here for decades.

Count me in, also going to try it the same way. :bigthink:

Now you guys realize he was living somewhere in New England when he was doing that right? Because the temperatures up there stay around 80 for only a couple of months in the summer. I lived in upstate NY for 6 years before moving down here.You can throw seed on the cement and it will grow. Try that anywhere south of PA and what will happen is the seed will come up in the spring, say March, along with the weeds because you can't put down pre-emergent,and die by mid-June because when 90-95 degree heat hits it won't have deep enough roots to survive. Unless of course, you can water it twice a day every day. But if you actually do it make sure you post some pictures :biggrin2:


:popcorn:

I did some seeding this spring, putting down the local garden stores "bulk" mix of shady area grass. Worked well by mixing it in with peat moss.

Gotta do some seeding this fall..

Well, good info aside, I'm down with Cad.... I'm gonna go out in Dec and toss some seed down... :) I'll will document the results. The truth must come out about this magical cure!

I can vouch for the winter seeding as I watched my FIL throw what grass seed was left in a bag out in a section of his yard around Christmas as he found it in the way in the garage. Next Spring you could see the new grass and that was the greenest area in his yard.

He also recommends freezing the seed before planting it if you plant during fall or spring, his theory is that it simulates winter dormancy.

edit to add...he lives in north east corner of MD near DE/PA. The winter he did it was the one we had three blizzards and it was very cold. It survived the following summer heat as well as the rest of his lawn. I haven't really made a point to notice it since that first spring when you couldn't help but see all the thick new growth there. I can't say for sure that the crabgrass hasn't taken over there since then, but I can say for sure it isn't a bare brown spot.

I heard freezing the seed stimulates faster growth as well. I am not going to try it since I'll be buying the more expensive seed this year, but if someone is willing to try it and report back that would be great. :biggrin2:

As far as the seeding in the winter, where does your FIL live? Also, since the concern is not whether it will come up in the spring but drought resistance in the summer, do you have any information on whether the newly seeded grass survived the summer months?

Regarding the freezing the seed theory, I had about 1/3 bag left over from last year that wintered in our detached garage so it definitely went through a couple freeze cycles this winter.

I don't know if it germinated faster since I didn't have a non frozen seed section to compare it to, but it certainly grew when I planted it this spring.

Im going to do this just to see the look on my wifes face (and if I time it right, her family visiting at xmas).....

Do it dressed for summer and make them think you've totally lost your mind!

So I've decided to take the scientific approach and test out the idea I've heard that freezing the seed before planting it yields higher and faster germination rates. I grabbed a couple of plastic containers, some potting soil and some leftover Rebel tall fescue seed from last year , and planted one sample as is, for the second sample I took the seed and placed it in the freezer for about 4 hours before planting. Both samples used the same seed, same soil, same watering schedule. The results after 7 days were significant enough to share.

The container on the right contains the frozen seed. So far nothing. I intend to repeat in case I messed something up, but I'm really surprised that it made this much difference. If the result repeats in the second test, it may be safe to say that seeding should be done either in the fall or the spring, but not in the winter.

Personally, I think you botched your test. The purpose of letting the seed freeze over winter is to let it go dormant. Putting it in the freezer for 4 hours basically just froze it, not made it go dormant. Probably killed the germ.

Repeat the test, only this time, put it in the fridge for about a week. Then move it to the freezer for about 2 months, then back to the fridge for at least a week, then to the ambient air for a week or so, then plant. That will come closer to duplicating winter.

Think about it, if you went out in the yard and pulled a plug of grass and put it in the deep freeze, I'm gonna say it would just die. No time for the plant to go dormant. No offense, but sounds to me like you make a better computer guy than a farmer LOL.

I want to add also, that in the case of rye and winter wheat (both plants in the grass family) you actually plant in the fall so the seed germinates, then it starts growing in the spring. In CAD's example, he puts the seed out on top of snow. Snow melts, seed embeds in the soil and grows when it gets warm. Optimal start time for growth is when it warms up in the spring, and before it's dry enough to plant. I can go on about the other reasons for success rate, but the big thing here is I think you killed the germ on your seed by just taking it from a warm environment to a below freezing one without time for the seed to go dormant.

It really wasn't about testing whether seed that naturally freezes over fall/winter germinates, it was more about testing the theory that's all over the internet that placing the seed in the freezer overnight before seeding speeds up germination. But it may also say something about taking seed and throwing it on the ground directly in sub-freezing temperatures.

Just wanted to clarify a little bit of the pseudo-science:

- Seed dormancy refers to the ability of a seed to not germinate under ideal conditions when it should germinate, e.g. plenty of water, nutrients and warmth. This is often achieved through physical barriers on the seed, like coatings, or hormones/chemicals. The seed not germinating under non-ideal conditions e.g. too cold,not enough water is called quiescence.
- Quiescent seed will resume growth at any time if the conditions are right, whereas dormant seeds require some sort of "special event" to germinate.
- Tall fescue seed, unless treated is not a dormant seed, and does not "go dormant".
- The processes which govern plant dormancy have nothing to do with seed dormancy. Which is why putting grass in the freezer has nothing to do with freezing seed. Which is also why winter wheat that germinates in the fall also has nothing to do with seed quiescence in the winter.

Having said that,I don't see how taking grass seed out of the bag and seeding it on top of snow (which is frozen water and will cause the seed to freeze) is different from putting it in the freezer. That is, it should freeze and germinate eventually when the conditions are right, either 4 hours later or 3 months later. The fact that nothing came up was a huge surprise to me. At this point though I agree that the experiment is flawed, but for reasons other than the ones you mentioned. I believe that since it was frozen, the seed will take a few extra days to thaw out and reach optimum temperature, whereas the seed that was not frozen was at the right temperature to begin with. If this is correct, the grass should begin to germinate in the next few days. I will try the experiment again, but I will allow the frozen seed to fully thaw out and then plant both batches to see if there's any difference in germination speed. I suspect there shouldn't be.

jc, your an interesting man. I think, however, you rely too much on your pc and the internet, whereas I am speaking from years of experience farming and planting yards for people. I'll watch your test though, I am intrigued..... :popcorn:

Thanks...I guess :biggrin2:. You're definitely right about relying too much on the internet thought :BangPC:.

In the meanwhile, a picture of sample #4, which aims to test the theory which says that seed that is not covered by dirt is wasted and will not germinate. Seed was planted on top of well packed soil. Although germination rate was somewhat lower than the seed that was covered by dirt, it was still fairly good.

My grass seed experiments have got me thinking, it seems kind of silly to spread a whole bunch of seed over a large area and then attempt to keep the whole area moist for 7-14 days so the seed can germinate. Seems there's a 5-6 day period when the seed does not really attach to the soil,it just sits there, so I'm wondering if it would be possible to spread the seed out on a tray or something and water it for 5-6 days, and just before it produces roots or whatever spread it on the ground. This would cut down on a lot of watering and increase your chances of success...I would think. I have already determined that the seed does not need to be covered to germinate, it just needs water. I'm going to spread a bunch of leftover seed on a tray and try it.