Front PTO clutch questions
 

I tried my best to search and find the answers but couldn't.

My 782 with a magnum 18 in it has some issues with the electric PTO.

It's gotten worse after 2 days of snow blowing.

Sometimes the PTO will randomly disengage. Toggle still centered in engaged position.

Since the blower has been installed, I noticed that upon turning the PTO switch off the blower kept rolling at the same speed. I had to run the blower into the snow to get the PTO to stop turning. Had to do this A LOT because the QA42A blower was pretty much worthless until I coated the shoot with turtle wax.

Anyway today I was running it again and it was randomly shutting off. But today it was stopping turning. And after only about 15 minutes it wouldn't turn the blower anymore. It kind of looked like it tried to turn over but was not making the "click" sound and it would eventually stop. I also tried to hold the toggle in the up position and blow that way. No dice.

So without turning any wrenches any thoughts?

Adjust the PTO?
Remove PTO and exchange for a PTO off parts tractor, has series 1 kt17.
Remove PTO and put a rebuilt/new PTO on? (Probably not in the budget).
Push it out in the driveway and set it on fire to finish clearing snow that way?

Thanks OCC!!!!

Sounds like 2 problems:
the bearing in the clutch is bad causing it to continue turning.
It might have gotten so bad it took out the electric coil.
See if you have 12V. power to the clutch plug about 6" out of the PTO clutch in the "ON" position.
either way remove the pto clutch and inspect.

No, if your that frustrated with it, just send me your address and I'll haul the piece of junk off for you.

If you want to fix it, it looks like George has you headed in the right direction.

look up the air gap setting for the PTO in question and set it properly at all sides with a feeler gauge. It sounds to me like it might be out of spec. This would be your cheapest/easiest fix, it's free to check and adjust as needed.

Ok guys thanks. The pus it outside and set it on fire comment would of happened a long time ago. More of a joke than anything. We have a love/hate relationship!

Ditto to what ol' George said. :ThumbsUp:

Does this happen while operating going forward or does it have to do with shifting from forward to reverse?

My 882 has the same issue as it is equipped with a reverse cutout switch.
Perhaps your machine has one as well.

Thanks for the input guys. I will see if I can find some time tonight to work on it. Will the PTO off the KT17 work on the magnum?

Thanks.

Yes! they are the same.
And the bearing in them are replaceable,and easy to do, FWIW.

Ok so I spent about 30 ,minutes on this after work. First observance is that the pulley does not have any slop or wobble. It does spin semi freely. It does sound like metal on metal scraping when I turn it. When the motor is running I hear the same metal on metal scraping sound. I tried to follow these instructions:
http://www.onlycubcadets.net/forum/showthread.php?t=30

I tried loosening the adjustment screws as far as I felt comfortable, 1-2 turns from the end of the stud. I still am not able to get a .010" feeler gauge in the inspection hole. I did not try anything lesser than .010". it looks like there are two steel discs that are spinning about each other, but no gap. Does the feeler gauge go the whole way in between these two plates or is the measurement taken way out at the edge?

Just trying to clarify what I should be looking for?

I also went and felt the one on the other motor and it's much stiffer to turn and the same amount of slop/wobble.

Let me know what you guys think?

Thanks!

ok let me try to explain some things:
The pto clutch is also a brake.
When you remove the power from the coil, the disc #3 in the drawing, comes fwd. a bit and scrapes on the stamping that is adjustable by the self locking nuts, #1, there are usually 3 of them on your style.
It is normal to have a scraping sound and somewhat difficult to turn the pulley with the clutch power off.
You are adjusting the nuts in the pix with clothes pins.
You are putting a feeler gauge in where the pencil and bic pen are.
to get your approx .010.
I have shown 2 styles of clutches.
Hope this helps.
The feeler gauge should slip in a ways not just the tip. you will be adjusting 3 nuts and checking in 3 places so it is even.

Ok thanks for the further explanation. I have loosened all three nuts the same amount and I checked both inspection points at 2 o'clock and 10 o'clock and the .010" feeler didn't go in. I will head back out and continue to loosen the nuts and try to check smaller feeler gauges to get a starting point. I will report back. Thanks for the help!

Update: so I have completely removed the stamped steel three point "adjustment plate". And the sprung ring is still riding on the ring behind it, which seems to be connected to the crank. I can pull the sprung ring away from the crank mounted hub. But it doesn't seem to me that I will never get any gap between the two pieces with other adjustment? Or am I misunderstood that the gap is between the stamped steel three point "adjustment plate" and the sprung ring?

ok, you are checking the gap between #2 and #3 in the diagram link Roland sent.
#3 is what the stamped triangle is moving closer to #2, with the 3 self locking nuts and is the .010 gap you are trying to achieve.
#3 is a spring plate sort of.
When the electromagnet (coil) is energized it bends the springy plate to close the .010 gap and drive the pulley by friction.
if you have AC on your vehicles you have the same similar clutch, you can watch the action.
if the stamped plate is not "bending" the springy plate close enough, the electro magnet does not have enough power to pull it much over a .015 gap,thus the .010 spec.
If it is too close it will "drag" and wear out, when not energized.
---hard to describe but it is simple really.
Also when the power is not activating the coil, #3 springs back and contacts/rubs on the stamped steel triangle, thus braking the pulley/belt/mower to a stop.

Ok I am following you. This is the issue. With the adjuster plate completely removed from the PTO, #3 is still touching #2. I can put my finger under it and move #3 away from #2. But just turning the pulley #3 rubs on #2.

So how do I move #3 away from #2? In order to achieve a gap.

And for good measure I disconnected the power and this did not change the state of the PTO.

Thanks!

Took a snapshot from the quietline manual
 

Do you have a manual for your machine? This is what I found in the quiet line manual. Item shown as #2. Again this is from the quiet line manual and not the 82 series so I am just guessing the clutch assembly is similar.

What you will have to do is add shims between the driving disc and the driven disk. You will probably have to make them as they're had to find in the correct size.
Hope this helps you out. If you need more explanation on the function of the clutch let me know.

It sounds like you have a problem with either the bearing or the adapter it rides on, as you should have clearance between 2-3.
Remove the crank bolt & washer, and remove the pulley/bearing assy, be careful not to damage the pulley. usually they come off fairly easily.
I'm thinking possibly the bearing sized on the little adapter it rides on, and has been spinning on it and has worn the shoulder shorter, but just a theory.
You prolly will wind up using your spare PTO assy from your other engine, but you have to take it apart anyway, to replace it.
I can take some pix of the assy's that I have if you need, or if it might help you.:beerchug:

Finally got back on this tonight. I have both clutches apart and sitting beside each other. The main thing that I can tell the difference is the steel basket that goes over the magnet. The boss that slides over the crank protrudes further on the clutch from the parts engine. Pictures below. Thoughts?

Parts engine:
http://i704.photobucket.com/albums/w...psreczph0y.jpg

Magnum 18 clutch:
http://i704.photobucket.com/albums/w...pscqo0z5oj.jpg

Keep the clutch parts separate,as far as what was originally together
IIRR there is 2 different length of spacers that the pulley/bearing rides on.
Thinking there were different suppliers of the clutches back then.
Is it possible that you mixed/matched parts back when you put the magnum in to replace KT engine?
(Assuming you did the repower)

With the driving hub setting in the position as you are measuring it, the pulley/bearing with spacer, when placed on top of it should have a clearance between the driving hub and driven hub, does it???
If not, there lies the problem.
Either the spacer it is worn short, or it is the wrong one for the clutch assy.
Does the bearing turn freely with your fingers inserted in the center?
any excessive movement of the bearing axially, as
that can cause the problem also of the drive/driven hub being too close together.

Yes, there was. Warner and Ogura.

Both the KT-17 and M-18 used the same PTO clutch, being 717-3044

Ok update:
Stacked both units together.

One out of the parts tractor measures about .050" clearance between drive and driven:
http://i704.photobucket.com/albums/w...psyszea5w5.jpg

One out of the tractor is no clearance as it was when it was mounted on the motor (picture is showing feeler gauge not going between the drive and driven):
http://i704.photobucket.com/albums/w...psmqi1pdr5.jpg

And just for fun swapped the drive plate from the parts motor and the driven plate from PTO out of the tractor. Clearance is about .130". So I understand why you don't swap parts between the two. The magnet is probably not strong enough to overcome the springs when they are displaced that far already.
http://i704.photobucket.com/albums/w...psadrizi07.jpg

There is a decent amount of wear on the back of the driven plate from the parts motor. As the bearing feels a little tight. I will try to clean and degrease see if it improves.

Any other input? All input given this far is very much appreciated.

Is the shoulder of the spacer, seated against the inner bearing race when you are checking clearance of the problem clutch?
@ this point you prolly are going to have to use the one off the kt parts motor.
it will pull down to the .010 gap when you put the stamping over it and tighten the adjusting nuts.
You can swap the bearings if need, they push out, just support on the bore the bearing is in, not on the pulley, as they deform easily.
While it is apart, check your magnet coil insulation, usually they flake off.
They can be easily recovered with a 2 part epoxy, some use JB weld.
just flow it into the windings while it is setting level.
Sometimes a tight bearing can be saved/lubed with a syringe filled with light chassis grease if it is not "rough" just tight/dry,by injecting it carefully under the seal lip.
the warmer the grease the easier it injects.

Ok got the part kt PTO on the magnum. Everything seems to work as intended. I am around .015" gap. Should I tighten it up? Seems as though the engagement is a little violent. Will tightening up the gap help this?

Overall the PTO engages quickly and seems to have good power (not slipping) and as soon as I shut the switch off the snowblower stops immediately!

As it should, the brake is working.
if it won't engage when hot, tighten the gap to .010
don't throw the other pto away, good for parts.
Always good idea to engage @ lower rpm's

Thanks. I really appreciate all the help with this machine. Breathing new life into this old tractor brings a smile to my face everytime I over come a challenge! On to the next challenge, replacing the leaky valve on top of the hydro.

Get yours rebuilt by the guy on ebay, less expensive than new and does good work.
timarca ebay#
320670405175