New shop
 

I'm in the process of getting the permits and all the other crap needed to start my new Cubby shop & MIL apartment and have a few questions.

I plan on heating the slab with a Pex type tubing and probably a tankless water heater. This is pretty much unheard of here in Georgia so I don't really have anyone at work to ask and I know there is a ton of knowledge from our members here. I've watched tons of videos on YouTube but we all know how that is. Has anyone here installed hydronic heat in the slab?

Pretty much anything like I'm building they always do a monolithic slab here because it doesn't get that cold(slab & footer are all one). Since I'm doing all the plumbing and slab heat myself I was wanting to have them pour the footer, stem wall and then they can start framing. That way I could do my stuff and not be rushed.

I dread the day I gotta drag all the crap I collected for the last 15 years out into the back of my yard and cover it with a tarp until this thing is complete. I will probably have to sell off some of my stuff too.

So, if anyone has any tips they can pass on please let me know.

TIA, Todd

No tips buddy, but you mean to say, the Cubs are moving out of the "chicken coop?" :biggrin2:
You know the drill, :callyou:

so you gotta tear one down to build another? thats no fun. been there done that. gotta do it again as my side building is wooden, and falling in slowly.
I'm not sure on the pex in the floor. Theres a special kind of stuff to run but I don't know the ins and outs of it. I'm sure someone on here will though.

Oak... Its called Angie's List....

Also Home Advisor and its free,
Oak, are you an AC guy? You should be able to handle the installation then.

I did a few of those radiant heat systems in a slab, easy to do, you do not have issues with freezing temps, so no antifreeze, I never used pex, but I am sure it will last. I used braided rubber hose made for radiant heat, works fine.

I just did 7000 Sq feet fire station. You need to insulate you're slab from your footing. So pour the footing and then roll the concrete barrier around the inside footer. Lay the 2" foam insulation down starting at one corner working out. Lay the foam down tight. The goal is for the slab, and slab only, to be the heat sink. You do not want all of your heat going into the footer and subsequently, the ground. Roll out your 5/8" oxygen barrier pex tubing on 12" centers, and keep your loops or zones equal lengths for a consistent pressure drop across the manifold. I use strut and 1" sch 40 conduit els to bring up through concrete. Pressurize to 50 psi. Pour the slab.

Hose is OK. Pex is more economical, and lays down nice if it's above 60. If it's freezing while your putting the tubing down, you will have to use hose. We always put glycol in the loops. Up here it's suicide not to. Hate to go to all that effort and have something happen. Not quite as simple to change out as a 98%heat x

There is a special tubing for in-floor heat and is joined and manifolded in the same manner as PEX but the tubing is of a material that will hold up to life long exposure to concrete. The biggest issue is tying the tubing onto the stanchions to position the tube in the slab. You create your forms, lay in the insulation, lay your bar or mesh reinforcements, then carefully lay out your heat runs (zones) and twist tie the tube onto little plastic stanchions (risers). The trick is to not cut or chafe the tube while rolling it out. When we poured 35 yards for the floor in a museum, we rented a couple of rechargeable tie guns that twisted the preformed loop of wire. Some guys swear by zip ties, but the professionals all use the wire as it is faster. Make sure to sketch an accurate drawing of the exact location of each tube. Pictures help. If the slab must be cut for expansion joints, you need to know where the tubes are. Also if you ever drill and bolt to the floor for a lift or some other machine the same thing goes!
You will love the in-floor heat. No noise, no dust or cold drafts, and the floor dries very quickly when water is spilled or the floor is washed. If you work under vehicles as I do, you will be working in shirt sleeves!

Here are a few pictures of south bay.

Diesel doctor, you are wrong.

It has an oxygen barrier that prevents oxygen from penetrating the tubing keeping from over oxygenation the water.

Has nothing to do with concrete protection.

All slabs should be cut

Rebar sits on chairs and is installed after in floor is laid.

At no point do I want anything wire metal anything touching my in floor tubing.

Looks like fun, rescue, bet the insulation panels were pricey but it makes for fast installation.
I like the guy with the joystick pumping the perishable product.

Rescue, thanks for the pics. I have a few questions on your install.

--What is the foam board you used and what is the cost? I looked at the 2" pink board at Home Cheapo and it is $36 for a 4x8 sheet. My slab is going to be 2400sf so I will need 75 sheets.

--What is it that you put up against the footer? I think all I have seen on the vids is that they run the 2" foam up to the top of the crete. I didn't think that looked right.

--Do I need 2" or could I use 1" at half the cost? I'm thinking probably 2" is the way to go.

--Did you put a vapor barrier down?

--I've seen it put down like your job is and then some people say the pex has to be in the middle of the crete to work properly. Most vids I've seen show the pex on top of the rebar but I'm like you, wouldn't there be some type of problem over time with expansion and contraction?

--Did you zone your job?

--Do you think I need to use the 5/8 for my job or will the 1/2" work?

--I will probably be using a propane tankless water heater for my source but I'm not sure what the codes say here for using them. I may be telling Mr. Inspector that the pex is for future use. Have you seen them used up your way?

Thanks for all the input everyone. I'm sure I will have more questions.

Let me know if you have any more questions

:angry: Crap, this is the reply I got back from the Thermo-Snap rep. Well, looks like he was out for my best interest and not a sale. Kudos to him and his company.:beerchug: I guess I need to ask around what to use or can that idea.

His reply.

Todd,

Thanks for your inquiry about Thermo-Snap by Benchmark Foam. Full disclosure, according to IRC Building Code, the entire state of Georgia is considered "Very Heavy Termite infestation probability."

The below statement is taken directly from the Code.

R318.4 Foam Plastic Protection

In areas where the probability of termite infestation is "very heavy" as indicated in Figure R301.2(6), extruded and expanded polystyrene, polyisocyanurate and other foam plastics shall not be installed on the exterior face or under interior or exterior foundation walls or slab foundations located below grade. The clearance between foam plastics installed above grade and exposed earth shall be not less than 6 inches (152 mm).

Now I am not trying to discourage you from any building methods you want to try, but I want to have everything up front.

If you are still interested in pricing, we would sell you directly but we would need to calculate a freight rate down to you.

Which zip code would this be shipping to??

Is this a commercial, residential, or job site address?

What kind of equipment is on hand to unload?

If you can get back directly to me with those answers, I can calculate all in pricing with freight included.

Once again, thanks for your interest in Thermo-Snap and let me know if you have any questions.

I may look into something like this if Mr. Inspector approves.

http://www.ecofoil.com/All-Products/...3ZdxoCDi_w_wcB

By no means discouraging your heating plan, just wondering why floor heat instead of a furnace of some sort? We probably get a little colder than you guys and I don't know of anyone with floor heating in their shop. Yes, I understand its really nice in the northern climates. Just wondering and learning as I have never seen or even heard of this around here.

I have heard that from inspectors up here in jersey, typically putting foam board, or fiber glass insulation board on exterior below grade walls is not code.

I would go with a overhead radiant heat unit.

Nebraska allows it and some of the city's here have extreme codes bordering on insanity. However, different regions, different hurdles.

IF Radiant were not an option, I would want forced air w/98% afue and or heat pump, maybe even GEO... For a shiny new shop.

Tube heaters are OK, not a big fan and never push them.

Radiant floor heat in Georgia is pretty much non existent. It doesn't get cold enough to justify it. On one end of this building will be an 800sf apartment for my MIL. I hate carpet so it will probably have a lot of tile or similar for flooring and I know that she will be cold walking on an unheated floor. Her place will have a separate heat pump system for heat and a/c.

My shop area will also have a heat pump system for its primary heat & a/c also.

I'm wanting to install the radiant because I think it's a good way to heat and would be cool to have. The cost isn't much for the oxygen barrier Pex either at $0.21/ft. I figured I would have a total of less than $700 in Pex pipe in the slab. I'm a commercial HVAC contractor so nothing will get subbed out. I will do it all myself at my own pace as time allows. If I had to pay out of pocket to have this done there would be no way I would ever think about it.

And you will love it when you're done. I don't think it matters where you're at, in floor is awesome.

They do have electric heating you put under the tile.
Did that before.

Well, makes sense I guess. I THINK I read where guys were circulating water in these types of systems that was trying to get the benefit of some geothermal heating/cooling--I believe there were large and deep pipe "fields" out in the yard, would that be part of your plan as well? I have a high crawl space under my house (built into a hill, no flat land here) and it is amazing how cool it is under the house during the summer. Oh if there were just a way to efficiently capture it for cooling--no trees for shade.
A shop with AC, I'm jealous. We are soaked with sweat this morning with the temps in the low 80's because of the humidity. Setting up for a stormy afternoon.

So what type of lighting are you going to install? Our farm shop had old fluorescent that my uncle got from Lord only knows where. Well, over the last 30 years a lot of it has died. So, dad got a bunch of used 4 ft fixtures from a drugstore that was being renovated. Now most of it has died. He even bought some new 8' fluorescent fixtures and those are flaky. A while back I bought a bunch of 4' LED fixtures at Costco, but haven't been able to coordinate getting my electrician buddy to replace them. We switched to all LED at work this past winter and are quite pleased. According to the power company those lights will pay for themselves in a few years. Of course in a home shop, the light bill is fairly negligible. I often pay more just for the power to be turned on than we actually use for that month.

I'm not sold on the LED lights just yet. At least the big ones for shops and outdoor use. I still see a lot of them that fail; either the whole thing goes out, sections go out, or they flicker. I've been using the 4' "shop light" at Lowe's for $15 (plus bulbs). Just put electric outlets in the ceiling where the old lights were and plug them in. If one goes out, it's easy to take it off the chains and swap in a new one. Bulbs are very reasonable too, and price varies depending what color temp you want.

I don't know what type I'll use yet. A buddy of mine owns an electrical business and I'm sure he will hook me up but I was thinking LED. He got me 4 high bay, metal halide lights in my garage now and they give off a bunch of light but take about 5 minutes to turn on.

What a PIA this building is getting to be. 15 years ago when I built my garage it was a pretty simple process. The county has so much bs that I gotta jump through to just get a permit now.

I am zoned AG and own 6 3/4 acres but I can't have a building taller than 25' or taller than my home. Unfortunately I live in a ranch style house with a roof peak of 22'.:angry:

Any building over 2000sf is considered commercial and must meet commercial codes.:angry:

Must have a 2 hour fire wall between apartment and shop area. I figured a 1 hour but they want a 2 hour.:angry:

Existing building is 85' off of road but my home is 106' off of the road. Any accessory structure must be behind primary dwelling.:angry:

Nobody wants to talk face to face anymore. They only want to communicate through email.

Funny thing is, I'm trying to improve my property by building a new building but they are making it impossible to do anything.

Does anyone have any pointers for me?

All I keep telling myself is
Attachment 86491

That made me mad just reading it.:angry:
I'm sorry I have no words of wisdom for you, other than maybe try some bribery :biggrin2:

Todd, maybe it's time to move. When I converted my barn into a shop I didn't have to do anything building inspector told me as long as no one is going to live in the shop they didn't care. I love this area.

Make your new shop 4 feet shorter in height, and under 2000 sq. ft.
You have no snow load requirements, so go with a lower pitch roof.

They've been getting plenty of snow down south the last few years.

Sounds almost like you are in a neighborhood and having to abide by covenants in the deed. I thought we were strict, that stuff is crazy. What drives me crazy is they never have to leave their desk and can zoom in via satellite and see anything you have built. I have heard of folks "remodeling" an old home to the extent that the majority was demolished and replaced with all new construction. So, do you guys have any impermeable surface requirements? We do, can't exceed 6%. That 6% includes your house, driveway (even if it is gravel), the concrete slab the AC unit sits on, stepping stones leading to the door, the 4' slab required around our wells, etc. When I built my house, I had to get another acre of land from the family farm and add it to my house so I could get a CO because we had exceeded the 6%.
Then when I built my garage, the inspector wanted an irrigation canal dug beside it to keep water away from it--it sits almost on the crest of a hill. We dug, grade, scraped for 2 months and finally waited for a new inspector to get assigned--he granted a CO without ever getting out of the car. At least you aren't having to deal with the tax office.:bash2:

Best of luck!

Hey Todd, after talking with you last night, I could hear the "displeasure" of the powers that be in your voice. Yeah, it's BS, at the very least.
You are going to build, improve the property, in doing so, your taxes will be going up, so they'll be getting more money from you over the years. Around here, that's all it is. $$$$$
When I added to the shop last year, went down to get the/a building permit, then I had to get a land usage permit.:bash2: Pay more $ to use the land we own, and already pay the taxes on...:bigthink:
Always some desk jockey making new rules and regulations for the county. Hopefully there's a break in the clouds, and the sun will shine through. Good luck...:beerchug:

Want to get mad? Think how much you paid for your home. Then add up your tax bills on said home. You earn money and pay roughly 25% in taxes. Spend your money and taxed 7-10%. My real estate taxes are roughly 3% of our household income before any taxes. My real estate taxes have gone up X4 in the past 15 years on my current home and household income maybe 10%. The state just balanced the budget by raising my taxes. Kiss my grits state of Illinois.

That sucks, Oak. I hope it does not spoil your plans. NYS squeezes the cripes out of us on taxes. Some towns/counties are worse. I look at it as paying rent to the state even after you struggle to pay off the investment. Do we ever really own our land?? Land of the Free without true freedom.....:bash2:

Wish me luck. I have a meeting with the zoning administrator on Monday.

The founder of the company I work for used to say all the time "You'll catch more flies with honey than vinegar". Best of luck to you, hopefully the person you are meeting with has some common sense and will work out some compromises with you.

Permitting seems to be getting worse everywhere. I am in the process of building a large external garage here in Maryland. They have some of the most strict requirements in the country, some are rediculous. I have made it through the first 5 permitting office approvals but have been tied up for 7 months with the health department approval. Need a 100 year septic replacement plan by a licensed engineering firm, perc tests, survey and much more all for an external garage with no plumbing on my property with an existing house and fully functional septic system. Don't want to think about what that has cost.

I got very interested in hydronic heat when I rented a house in Germany for three years that had it. So when I built my own house 10 years ago it had to have it. I installed hydronic heating in the basement slab and hydronic gypcrete slabs on all three upper levels. I used a super high efficiency boiler that exhausts through a PVC pipe. There were very few companies in Maryland at that time that were knowledgeable about hydronic systems. The one I interviewed wanted to charge me 150K for a computer controlled system, the only type they installed. I am not a building professional but an avid tinkerer so I did months of research and design. The best source of information I found was a book "Modern Hydronic Heating" by John Siegenthaler (P.E.). I designed a very simple system that works great using John's information. Much better info than available on the internet and worth every cent. There are a few things I know that you may want to consider such as avoiding the use of a conventional tankless hot water heater to heat the system due to design and longevity issues in that application.

Send me a PM and I will send my contact information if you want to talk about it.

Rick

A picture of my son and I putting down PEX tubing in the attic space.

He lives in Georgia, he's not going to be running this thing 24 7, a tankless water heater will be just fine for his region. He does not need to spend $7,000 on a high efficiency boiler. But whatever, you read a book, so now your an "expert" . :bash2:

Your absolutely right about the boiler and I did not say that is what he should use. That is the solution for me, he will decide what is best for him. There are many options.