Cub Cadet 1650 engine trouble
 

Hello everyone.. I recently acquired 1977 International Harvester cub cadet 1650 from a close friend.. The machine looks great! However after getting it home and using it for approximately 10-20 minutes, the engine began bogging down. ...the spark plug looked worn so i replaced it but still no changes.

Thee gone turns over each time but the engine will immediately begin bogging down after the i itial bogging down which occurs after running the machine for typically around 15-20 minutes... I have to wait a considerable amount of time for it to "cool down" before using it to where I can move it.

I ordered new points and condenser. I replaced the condenser which seem to improve the run time to maybe around 30 minutes before it began with the
same issue (engine bogging down while moving forward).

I then noticed the return clutch/brake spring snapped off so I replaced that. Still no changes.



I have no experience with points and have heard it's not easy to install. I don't want to attempt this yet as I do not know if this is the issue. Doess anybody have any other recommendations or any other areas to tes that? any help would be much appreciated as this tractor is new to me

Alex

I attached a photo of the tractor. elle .. thanks for looking and helping out

Hello and welcome to the forum. :Welcome2:


Doing a tune up to an old machine that is new to you is never a bad idea, but it is also nice to know that you are doing something that needs to be done. That said, filing the points is usually good enough to bring them back into shape. Points in these engines usually last a long time, depending on the hours they have ran.

"Bogging down" is such a relative term. Doesn't really explain much.
*Does it pull down and die?
*Does it pull down from an idle, or WOT, or half throttle???
*Does it pick back up once you stop moving?
*Is it an engine problem, or a trans problem?
*How much was the tractor used prior to you getting it? Was it a weekly use machine? Or has it sat?
*Has the engine had any work done to it recently?

Lots of questions..... need some more information to help you legitimately. My initial response would be to clean the fuel system including removal of the tank and carb, replace the fuel lines, at the least remove the bowl off the carb and drain it. File the points and time the engine as per the engine manual. (More info on that can be provided if necessary.) Check and replace the air filter as necessary and service the hydro trans with new oil and a filter.... It that doesn't help, pull the head and check things out.

All the things J-Mech suggested are good to do to a new to you machine. I'd add check under the engine tins for mouse nest or other crud blocking airflow over the engine.

Is the firewall intact and does it have the rubber around it? I agree with Jon that it is most likely a fuel issue. Another possibility given the the frame you provided is an overheating coil but those generally shut the tractor off completely.

Could be a valve sticking when the engine gets hot.

I had a 1000 that acted the same way. When the tractor was cooling down I could hear the valve pop back into place. I could start back up and run for a little bit after that.

Something to try that is very inexpensive to get a bottle of Marvel Mystery Oil. Add a heavy dose to the gas and the oil.

I did this on my 1000 and after about 2 tanks of gas, this problem went away. I mowed once a week with that tractor for another 8 years before I sold it and never had this issue again. From then on I always add a little bit to the gas and oil in all my Cubs. Saved me from tearing into the engine and doing a valve job.

Cub 1650 trouble
 

Guys, thanks so much for the advice.

To answer J-Mech: When I start the tractor everything sounds great. I engage the throttle into the F position and use it without any problems for about 20 minutes or so. Then, without any other indication, the tractor starts to bog or choke down to the point of wanting to shut off. However, if I move the throttle lever back down to Neutral quickly I can "save" it from shutting down. As the engine "recovers" and picks back up I then try to move forward, I can some times play with it enough to get the tractor to run for a few more minutes (around 10 minutes but with intermittent success of the engine working but then bogging down)... basically enough time to get it back into the garage.

I took the fuel lines off, looked clear/clean and the carburetor bowl off and that was clean as well. I filed the points down very very gently as I was told to be careful not to take too much off. I replaced the spring return for the brake/clutch after it snapped off. I honestly thought this was the problem because the throttle and clutch/brake lever are connected. I also replaced the spark plug, condenser and air filter. Those are all new. Still experiencing the same problem thought.

No recent engine work has been done. My close friend who has had the tractor for a few years said it never gave him this issue. HOWEVER, he did tell me it sat here and there as it was not his primary tractor.

I have not drained the fuel in the tank.. but I have gone through 2 tanks of gas since bringing the tractor home.

There are no nests restricting air flow. I'm not mechanic but would it be possible something is overheating? Why is it running without problems for as long as it does but then BOOM! Seems like something could be overheating.

If the points were "off" wouldn't I be experience immediate problems once the engine turned over?

thanks for the recent replies guys... still need your guidance.

Alex

Have you checked the gas cap to make sure the vents not plugged?

I'd go with the MMO in the gas 1st off maybe 2oz/gal at least.
I mix 1/ox per gal for all my older Cubs and use non ethanol gas.
You can also include the MMO as a % part of an oil change according to the directions.

What type of ignition coil or coils does this model have?

NO!!! because "turning over" means ONLY that.... no more. Whether it fires, or attempts to start, or not.
you can remove the carb, remove the points condenser and coil completely from the tractor. Take the head off too. Then hit the key. With all those parts gone, it is guaranteed not to start or run but the engine will still spin. It is "turning over".
It drives me nuts when people think that "turning over" somehow means it fires up and tries to start and run.

Have you tried pulling the choke when this happens to see if it comes back to life?

THANK YOU! I was going to say that. :beerchug:



Ok, first, lets clear up some controls and terms. The throttle lever DOES NOT have an "F" or a "neutral" position. So, are you talking about the throttle? Or the hydrostat control lever??

Second, when it is dying, do you try pulling the choke out? If so, does it help? Make it worse? Do you pull it out a little, a lot? What??? What does "I play with it enough to get the tractor to run" mean? Play with the throttle? Choke? Get off and rub it's belly???



If you filed the points, you need to set the timing. PERIOD. No matter what, you removed material, and that affects timing. You can't file the points without it affecting timing.

The return spring for the brake pedal IS NOT connected to the throttle in any way shape of form. It is related to the hydrostat control lever, but not connected to it.



Ok, well it's good to know that prior to you getting it, it hasn't been worked on recently. We can rule out possible incorrect, or incorrectly installed parts. Hopefully your friend had used it enough to know that it didn't have these issues.

Just because you have ran two tanks of gas through it DOES NOT mean that the fuel tank is clean.


I'm a mechanic....

Unless you have removed the engine completely from the frame and removed ALL the engine tins, there is no possible way you could know that there is nothing inside the shrouding on the motor.

Yes, it is possible something is overheating.... but it takes time to diagnose what. We need to rule out simple things first and go from there, that is why is suggested what I did in my initial response. No sense jumping straight to a sticking valve, scored piston, spun rod, ect, before first eliminating the easy common fixes. At this point in the game, I'm not convinced that the brakes aren't sticking and the motor only runs at 1800 RPM and it's just killing it.


Short answer, NO. dodge trucker cleared up the terminology, but there are other reasons the answer is no. You need to check the timing.

When I say turning over I mean the engine starts, the tractor runs but after the allotted time, the engine begins experiencing this trouble. I've been at work all week and have not had any time to play with the tractor. I don't know what type of coil it has but will look at that as well as the gas cap... As I'm not too familiar with the tractor, I may post a few pictures for consulting purposes ...

Enjoy the day everyone !

Alex

I did play with the choke during one of the episodes.. I did notice a little bit of a difference but I couldn't get the tractor to continue, still had to bring the throttle back to Neutral. Could the choke have anything to do with something like this.

Did you read my post? There is NO NEUTRAL on the throttle!! What lever are you talking about? The hydro control lever has a neutral.... is that the "lever" you are talking about?

:popcorn::popcorn::popcorn::popcorn: Interesting

Maybe you missed the two posts above. That's my vote.

Guys, I apologize if I replied before reading any of the posts... It seems I have missed some and in my doing so neglected to clear up a few things.

It is not the throttle.. it is the hydro control lever.

When I "filed" the points, all I did was take a quarter and rub it very gently on the points to get rid of any corrosion... I took the advice of my neighbor who has worked on cars all his life ( in his mid 70's) and he said do it very gently as you don't want to take/file down the actual points. So again, I barely touched the points but if I do need to time the points/engine, how is this done? Do you guys have any videos or recommendations on how to learn this process?

After the machine runs for 20 minutes and the engine begins to choke or bog down to the point of stalling out, I noticed that when I return the hydro control lever from F to N this prevents it from stalling out completely, the engine then "recovers" in the N position and idles and idles normally I would say. However, when I adjust the hydro control lever to the F position and the tractor starts moving forward it begins to choke/bog down again and in turn I'm forced to bring the hydro control lever to Neutral. If I'm not near my garage, I'll have to let the tractor cool down for a bit before I can get it working again enough to return it to my garage.

I ordered the Marvel Mystery Oil and expect it in a couple days (probably Monday/Tuesday). I used Sea Foam in the second tank but haven't noticed a difference obviously.. is MMO similar or completely different?

The GAS cap. I'll check the cap again but I did not notice anything clogged. As one of you have mentioned, I may have to drain the tank and clean it completely. There is no fuel filter I can locate and from the research I've done so far I don't believe this tractor has one.

In regards to the Choke, I noticed on a few occasions that when the engine begins to bog down and I move the hydro control lever down toward the N position, I pulled the choke 1/2 way or sometimes all the way out and it has saved the engine from completely shutting off (but still have to bring the hydro control lever to N).

I'm off tomorrow and hope to look more into the tractor.

What is the best method of testing the ignition coil? if that is overheating? I'm not too savy with a multimeter so any help would be appreciated.

AGAIN, I apologize but I never saw some of your posts... Have a great weekend gents!

Alex

If you only stop the forward motion of the tractor and the engine recovers, it sounds like a fuel related issue. Do as suggested in about 10 of the posts and clean the fuel system and carb. Then adjust the carb and governor while you are at it.

You can find the information in the Kohler manual here:
http://www.onlycubcadets.net/forum/s...ead.php?t=4646

Time the ignition system like this:
http://www.onlycubcadets.net/forum/s...ad.php?t=33461

You can test the coil if you like, but I am pretty sure it's fine:
http://www.onlycubcadets.net/forum/showthread.php?t=11


Take the time and look through the tech section of the forum. Lots of manual, "how to's" and more in it:
http://www.onlycubcadets.net/forum/f...f=19&order=asc

In the Tech section, at the top of the page, you will see another smaller section titled "Tech Tips". Check it out too.

Sounds like your mistaking the forward/reverse lever for the throttle cause the throttle has no neutral

Yep Tom.... I think he figured that out finally.

I finally registered just to chime in on this.

I had seemingly the exact same issue with one of my 125s. Run for awhile, bog down, if i stopped and idled down fast enough i could keep it running sort of, for a minute or two.

If i shut her down and tried again in about 5 minutes, same thing started fine mowed about 4 feet, then quit.

It was a problem that started suddenly after hot rodding around the yard.

Turns out, the PO had soldered inside the gas tank somehow and a bb of solder broke loose and partially blocked the fuel line above the sediment bowl. So when you looked at it, it was full, but could flow enough to sustain running.

Yup had the same thing happen to my son's Original. Only it was a bad tank coating job that plugged the tank outlet.

Hey Everyone,

I finally had a chance to work on the Cub. I took apart the fuel tank, cleaned it thoroughly with water from the garden hose and let it fully dry. Prior to tanking the tank off, I drained the fuel and the fuel looked very clean but I did take a look inside the tank with a light and some some sediment. I could not find any filter or screen but did see a tank outlet ( I think it was the tank outlet, looks like a bolt) and took a photo of that. After draining the fuel tank and cleaning it throroughly, I removed the fuel line (I did this a few weeks ago) and the line was clear. I then removed the carb bowl and that look really clean too.

Anyways, after I assembled everthing, the tractor fired up... I let it run for several minutes before moving it.

Unfortunately, after about 3-5 minutes, the tractor began doing the same thing, bogging down... This time it stalled out. I coudn't save it using the choke and only a few times I could save it by moving the lever to Neutral... I actually had to put it in reverse to get it back to the garage.

QUESTION: The gas tank outlet: Should I have removed this and cleaned this? I have not experience with them so I'm not sure how they work. Is there some kind of screen in that tank outlet? What holds the tank outlet to the tank, is that a nut? What's the best way to remove this if you guys recommend me taking this apart/off to clean it.

I'm going to try posting a couple photos and a video of the tractor running/experiencing the problem. (I"m having trouble uploading the video)

Thanks in advance.

I can't tell what your picture is of. But is your gas tank metal or plastic? If it is metal the fitting and tank are threaded and the shutoff valve screws in. That should be obvious and yes you can take the shutoff valve out and clean the screen. If your tank is plastic, the shutoff valve pushes into a rubber bushing. You can take it apart but most likely you will ruin the rubber bushing and then you gotta find a new one. I'd leave that alone.

HOWEVER..... I would suggest that you take a a good look at your gas cap. There is a vent hole in it and if that vent hole becomes clogged with dirt no air can get into the tank and pretty soon you have a vacuum and no gas will flow. Then your engine dies! Try running it with the cap loose and see if it improves.

thanks I'll definitely check out the gas cap But the last I checked everything looked very clean.... but i'm. it too sure where that vent hole is so i'm curious about that. Ill take a picture of the gas cap and post it as well

the gas tank is plastic. I cleaned the tank out with water and when it was fully dried I hooked up an air compressor and with low PSI blew out the fuel line attached to the shut off valve and it was passing through with no problems indicating to me that there was no clog but air and gas are very different so maybe cleaning it again and taking the outlet out and replacing it with a new one is a good idea too.

thanks again

here's a pic of the gas cap.. couldn't see any issues but let me know if you see anything

OK so being unfamiliar with the tank outlets and after looking at the pictures more closely I do think that there is a screen on that outlet however it's extremely difficult to get in there to remove it I do have some long needle nose pliers that I'm going to try tomorrow to remove the screen. any other tips?

i'll keep you all updated soon.

I think I may have figured it out!!!

I checked the gas cap a while back and everything looked and still looks clean and clear but I think there's something wrong with it..I switched the gas cap with my other mower's gas cap (wright Stander) which was a loose fit (definitely not the right gas cap for the cub's tank) but with that venting easier it did not buck or bog down once in about the 15 minutes I just ran it...I think that might have been the entire issue this whole time

going to test it out tomorrow again and run it longer

keeping my fingers crossed!

I think I may have figured it out!!!

I checked the gas cap a while back and everything looked and still looks clean and clear but I think there's something wrong with it..I switched the gas cap with my other mower's gas cap (wright Stander) which was a loose fit (definitely not the right gas cap for the cub's tank) but with that venting easier it did not buck or bog down once in about the 15 minutes I just ran it...I think that might have been the entire issue this whole time

going to test it out tomorrow again and run it longer

keeping my fingers crossed!

I just want to confirm one thing the fuel cap on the cub cadet 1650 is designed to vent correct ?????

I just saw a fuel cap on Amazon that looked identical to the one on my cob the description said nonvented so I just want to be sure of this so there is no confusion

Ah, no needle nose pliers. This is the tank assembly. The valve pulls out the bottom of the tank...
http://www.cubcadet.com/equipment/AR...0-A/0028100004

FWIW:
The early 1650's had a small gas cap and tank opening.
Later ones were bigger, so if you are considering a new cap, just a heads up.
And as zippy mentioned, the screened petcock pulls out the bottom. it is in a rubber bung.
Get a couple of bungs, as they all harden and crack over time.
I usually pick them up @ tractor shows for a dollar or so.
Don't try to reuse your old hardened cracked one, because it will leak.:beerchug:

Depending on the serial number of your tractor, there are are two possible options.

S/N 560209 and below is part number IH-61635-C2 and looks like the top picture.

S/N 560210 and above is part number IH-109037-C! and looks like the bottom picture.

Give us your tractors serial number and post the link to the one on Amazon and we'll help you decide.

Best to measure the neck opening to be sure.
After 30+ years you never know what a previous owner did.
Just like in my case, an old style small neck tank was replaced with a later,easier to fill, non leaking tank:beerchug:

I had the same bogg down and die issue this spring. Tractor ran great for 15-20 minutes then bog down and die. I took the ingest route to the simplest fix.

I drained and cleaned fuel system and carb. No improvement .

Replaced coil and condensers. Still no improvement .

Pulled the head and valve cover to check for sticking valve. Valves were fine.

After all of that work, I adjusted the slow and fast idle screws 1/8 turn each. Problem solved.

The top picture is of a brand new IH-109037-C1 cap for a 1650. Notice the hole circled. It lets air in that is passed thru behind the gauge face through the opening where the spiral float shaft spins. Make sure that little hole is open.

I wish someone had suggested a gas cap earlier. :biggrin2: