Which vertical mill?
 

I've been shopping for a vertical mill. I have room for a free standing version, but my needs are fairly limited so a bench top on a stand would be fine. I'm looking at used mills but they seem either totally rusted out or well over $3000. I'd like to stay around $2000.

I've looked at Grizzly, and they have a bunch to choose from.

Does anybody have any suggestions for a decent bench top mill? Power feed? DRO? What did you wish you had but didn't get?

If you have used Bridgeport types before you will be disappointed with a bench top. Just not the necessary mass to dampen machining cuts. If you mostly drill they are great. A DRO is a must on any machine, as it will make any machine accurate, (at least help)despite the backlash and worn out leadscrews. Sorry I’m no help on benchtops, I’ve only got Bridgeports.
My favorite manual mill is a Bridgeport that I bought the CNC ball screw kit for but never put any controls on. Zero backlash!
A long time ago I had an Enco veritical. It was ok, wasn’t a BP but maybe there are some of those around for less.

Terry - in my opinion keep looking for a full sized mill, you won't be pleased with a tabletop. A Bridgeport or one of the clones is worth the money. I have a BP Series 1J that was built in 1960. The only thing I want to add is a DRO and power feed on the X axis. Both are available in kit form as add-ons. I paid $900 for my BP and had to move it about 150 miles. We moved it on a rental trailer that cost $75 for 24 hours. Be patient and you'll find a good deal, they are out there. Estate sales are a good source. Here's a picture of mine.

B port, or clone,
Handier than a pocket on a shirt
$1500 or so will get one in my area,
the more accessories and tighter ways, the higher the price.:beerchug:

A Bridgeport clone is what you'll find around here--and a decent one will run $2-6,000. We've probably bought 25 Bridgeport style mills in the last 30 years. We have 5 in the main shop and 3 in the "overflow" shop. Back in the late 90's we had 8 or 9 running daily in the main shop. Boss bought several brands. Supermax in a standard sized mill from the late 80's was decent. Alliant from the early 90's was better. Then we moved to larger sized mills--you'll never go back to a standard sized machine once you have those. The first was a Sharp, great machine from early 90's. Then we ordered some Alliants, appears they sold the name and the quality was not the same. Turns out Sharp began making the "good" mills, that's all the last several have been. They are a very good machine, but you are going to pay for them.

Power feeds--used to be Servo only but the chineese models are so cheap, we just run them till they blow and then replace instead of having the Servo brand repaired---way cheaper this way.

DRO---get it if you can. The newer style that don't have glass scales are very reliable, I think all ours are made by Newall, including the ones on the lathes.

Vise---Don't pay too much for the Chinese crap because that's what they are--crap. If you can find a well used Kurt you'll be golden. FYI, everytime a new month rolls around Kurt figures out how to make the vises open a little wider, Think they are pushing 8" opening now--jaws are still 6" wide.

Collets, just make sure they aren't sprung real bad. We only run Lyndex so I can't attest to the quality of off brand stuff. You will probably never use a 7/16, 13/16, or 7/8 collet.

Drill chucks--don't get excited if a guy throws in a big name chuck, only takes a minute for an idiot to ruin it. Jacobs isn't great, but are the most cost efficient. Forget about rebuilding an old one. Repair kits are almost as much as a new chuck (unless you are looking at a 25 year old chuck). We tried to rebuild a few but it just isn't worth it. I think a 14N is the series you want. If the face of the jaws are mushroomed or appear to have had a tool spun in them, the chuck is a paper weight. Do yourself a favor, if you start running drills over 1/2" with a 1/2" shank (silver and Demming style), put the darn thing in a collet---better on the drill and you won't hurt the chuck.

End mills--HSS has about gone the way of the shaper. I don't buy a dozen a year. Carbide is the only way given the pricing on it these days.

On EBay right now. Truck freight shipping from west coast would be around $700.

https://www.ebay.com/itm/BRIDGEPORT-...AAAOSwoBlafgRT

Local pickup only on that ebay listing. Good price, though.

I'm still looking around here. There are several mills listed on CL in the Norfolk area, lots of machine shops there. (think shipyards).

I may have to up my budget to $3000. There is a company that deals in used machines, Dempsey & Co. Used to be in Richmond, moved to Blackstone, VA. I need to call them. I don't need a big machine, but would like some quality.

Try these guys, we've bought a few pcs of new equipment from them. They may have something they took in on trade.
http://www.dominionair.com/

I'll have to call them. (Dominion).

Which vertical mill
 

https://pittsburgh.craigslist.org/tl...464446538.html

https://pittsburgh.craigslist.org/tl...482397337.html

That Cincinnati mill would be perfect for my needs. Thanks for posting. About an 8 hr drive for me. I'll keep looking for something closer.

some in my neck of the woods
https://raleigh.craigslist.org/searc...illing+machine
https://fayetteville.craigslist.org/...484572854.html
https://greensboro.craigslist.org/hv...482292208.html
https://raleigh.craigslist.org/hvo/d...480267797.html

OK, after several weeks of looking and talking, I found a mill in Virginia Beach, about 100 miles south of me. Brought it home today. It's dated 1981 but was hardly used. It's a Bridgeport Taiwanese clone. 2hp, 3ph. No tooling, only a vise. Has X and Y DRO, X and Z axis power feed, oiler, and a mister. No discernable wear on the x or y axis as movement of the bed does not reveal a change in effort as they are transversed from end to end of travel. I wish I had been able to get some tooling, but the owner was shutting down his shop (he had four mills) and took the best mill and all the tooling home with him.

The seller loaded it on my flatbed trailer with his forklift, I blocked the base and I strapped it down, drove it home and rented a skid steer with pallet forks at home to unload it.

A 4x4 under the top turret spanning the forks balances the mill perfectly. Now just need to get it in final position in the shop and wire it up with a variable frequency controller.

Ordered some R8 tooling to get started. Will take me a week or more to get it set up and tuned/trammed in.

Looks great SDD & keep feeding us the pics. I hope to have something like that someday.

Congratulations on your new toy! Six months from now you'll wonder how you ever lived without it.

Congrats. Haven’t seen a belt pulley speed change machine in awhile.
Have fun! Although I doubt the sanity of people will who want a hobby doing what I’ve done for a living for 30yrs. :biggrin2:

I still see belt pulley mills, even new ones, though no question variable speed would be better. I'm told that a VFD will give it variable speed control.

This replaces the Vacu Form I've been using....

Or you can make some cool things to form around! :biggrin2:

What brand is it? Looks a little like the Supermax we had when I started. Ours were mid to late 80's models. I bet being a step belt setup that the machine has less wear--everyone gravitates toward variable in a shop (unless there isn't one available).
The mister is probably a KoolMist setup. We used to run them ALL the time. Now I bet we only have 2 or 3 in the shop and they rarely get cut on--those things will smoke you out and it can't be good to breathe! We used to cut the exhaust fan on several times a day to clear the air.:bash2:
When you buy a vise, try to find the widest opening you can (6" width is pretty standard). Back when that mill was built, 6" opening was normal, but Kurt managed to push it to almost 9--I am assuming the Chinese copied everything they did. A cheap set of 1/8" parallels will be fine for a home shop.
Good luck with your new toy, I wish I had shop room for a full sized machine.

It says Machine World on it, the motor says Tung Hsing. It looks identical in all respects to another clone, the Hartford 2S. I ordered a Hartford mill user manual off Amazon.

I got a vise with it, though I have not checked it out yet to see if it's any good.

I'm going to remove the "machine world" name plate to see what is under it...no reason for that to be so big if it weren't covering something else up?

I have not yet been able to move it into position, still trying to determine best place for it in the shop. Busy with other chores for the next couple days...

Got the mill moved into its new spot, hooked up the DRO, task light, and the auto feed. Got the motor wiring sorted out, waiting on the VFD to get it running.

Squared the quill to the table with a try square, need an R8 collet to set up the dial test indicator to tram it in properly. Collets, end mills, new drawbar, clamping set, boring head, end mill holders, shell mills, face mills, insert tooling, fly cutter assy., etc all "in the mail." Actually, have the fly cutter and test indicator but no way to mount it yet.

Meanwhile, disassembled the "free" vise and removed all the metal shavings that packed the screw and kept the vise from opening more than a few inches. Cleaned it up, oiled it and put it back together. Not much to look at, but seems like it will work for a while, at least. Lapped some minor burrs off the jaws.

I'm now thinking I might try boring an engine with it. Need a scrap block to practice on...

If you bore a block, bring the knee up not the quill down, it's more accurate.

Congrats on your mill. Hope it works out well for you. Spindle speeds are the same as a Bridgeport. The VFD will "remove the hole" ( or gap ) between high and low range.

Are you familiar with tramming the head in? I have a write up on another forum I could copy if you would like.

Jeff

I just came in from the shop and saw your post. As a matter of fact, just spent the last hour tramming the headstock to the table. Got it within .002" or maybe a little better over 10 inches. We had rotated the headstock for transport so it was completely out of whack. Adjusted nod first, then tilt. Came right in. I'll look at it again with a different indicator and see if I can get it a bit closer, but I can't imagine I'd ever need anything better than that.

Put the indicator on the vise and the top of the jaw pads are perpendicular to the quill within .001" (.02 mm) when the table is moved left and right. Much of it was within .0005"/.01mm Have not checked the inside surfaces of the jaw pads yet but they look pretty nice.

The test indicator is actually in .01 mm divisions, so each division is a bit less than half a thousandth if my math is correct. (2540 divisions per inch). I'm calling it a half thousandth, close enough for me.

Some end mill holders and an R8 collet rack showed up in the mail. No VFD yet, Amazon said it was to be delivered today, but I'm rural, so UPS is usually a day late here. Can't wait to get it running.

Got the VFD hooked up, jury rigged a DPDT toggle switch for the time being. Will swap it out with a proper switch once I order one.

It's actually pretty neat that it controls speed by varying frequency to the motor, running the 3 ph motor on 220VAC single/split phase.

Here's a short video. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hjkWge5BEkU

Your ramp up and down seems pretty slow. I’m sure there are settings to change.
Can you set up a separate forward and reverse switch? Most VFDs can. I definitely would if you could. Would help in power tapping holes. Have fun!:biggrin2:

Edit. You should have a big/ easy to hit switch to kill the spindle. (E stop). Just in case.

There are many variables that can be set in the VFD. I'm sure ramp up /down is one of them. There is a reverse button on the VFD to change spindle direction. I've ordered a proper start/stop switch.

I’ve only set up a couple of vfds. On the two I did, I could get accel to my liking, but had to add a breaking resistor to slow down like I wanted. This was on 15hp
models though.
Looks like you got it about handled. Chips are about to fly!

There are terminals for a braking resistor, though I have not looked into that yet. I'm OK with the extended spin up and slow down speeds at this point. Not really in a hurry yet.

Installed the new on/off switch.

I managed to clean up a piece of mild steel today with one of the nitride coated end mills. Seemed to work great. Tried a carbide insert face mill and not much joy. I understand I need higher speeds and heavier feed for carbide, so I need to step back and look at my setup.

Got an R8 collet set, an R8 drill chuck, an R8 to MT2 adapter, a new drawbar, an edge finder, and a slitting saw arbor in the mail yesterday and today.

Waiting on the boring head and a 5C collet set with square and hex collet blocks, and a few other things still in transit.

Having a lot of fun learning this new machine.

I have tilted the head ever so slightly so the backside of the face mill doesn’t drag. Helps the surface finish. Keep the depth of cut no less than half the radius of the insert. Try to take too small depth of cut and it’s just like a lathe. You can’t get good finish taking off a couple of thousandths with a .03 radius tool.

Glad your having fun!

Took another crack at the face mill, and got much better results at ~400 rpm and 20 or 30 mils depth of cut is much better than 5 or 10, which mirrors my experience on the lathe. I could probably bump up the rpms to 600. Rear side of the mill does drag a bit on the surface but nothing you can feel with your fingers.

Do you find a big difference in results using inexpensive tooling from ebay sellers vs. more expensive name brands? Durability of HSS end mills, carbide inserts, etc? I've certainly found that good drill bits outlast cheap ones... Do you have a favorite supplier/website for lathe and mill tooling?

Thanks for your help.

If your spindle bearings have any vertical play in them, you’ll never be able to get a great finish with an inserted chipper. One of our Bridgeports at work has .004” play on the bearings and it leaves a horrible finish with inserted chippers. As you start onto the part, the spindle pushes up from the tool pressure and as you come off of the part, the spindle drops down and bounces causing chattering.

With tooling, you definitely get what you pay for. The cheap endmills and drills are not made from good steel.

I agree with this. But I don’t think Frank will be doing production and maybe get by with middle of the road tooling. If MSC is where you are going, the accupro stuff is kind of ok. It’s no OSG brand good but will work for a tool than maybe you won’t use again.
Do not skimp on taps. OSG, emuge are best IMO.
If you are going with carbide end mills, you have to keep the chips evacuated. You start cutting old chips in a groove they will chip the edge.
Use the feed and speed formula and you will be ok.

I've purchased a combination of insert tooling and R8 adapters/arbors from ebay sellers and a large lot of what looks like higher quality end mills from a retired machinist. The lot includes single and double ended mills, 2 and 4 flutes, short and long, roughing and form cutters (round over, vee, slotting drills, round nose, etc).

I've been practicing making square blocks. Just getting an accurate set up, and facing 6 sides so they are all perpendicular and dimensionally accurate. I'm within .001" across a 4 inch wide block which I think is quite good. Even ground my own HSS bit for a fly cutter to surface a larger aluminum block which yielded a near mirror finish on the part.

Having a lot of fun learning this new machine. Glad I bought this full size knee mill and not a smaller table top version, despite the challenges in getting it and moving it around.

Oh, one thing that might help others considering such a purchase. I was able to move the mill across the garage floor by myself with a 2 Ton engine hoist that I purchased from Tractor Supply. Set the arm at the 1.5 Ton setting and was able to lift the mill off the floor a couple inches and roll the whole rig across the floor to the final position.