1450 Loader Questions
 

Hi All, New to the forum, I just picked up a new to me 1450 with a homemade loader.

The loader is ran off the rear end and seems to lack power it’ll lift max about 200 lbs very slowly. I am assuming this should be able to lift more and is probably due to the fact it doesn’t have its own hydro pump. Moves snow great as is but come summer I have some gravel I want to move and I don’t think it’ll be up for the task. Upon research on the forum I’ve decided I need a separate pump, hoping to run this pump off the electric pto up front to be able to disengage for winter starting. https://www.northerntool.com/shop/to...1998_200641998.

Three questions:
1)Does this pump look right? from the research I have done seems like I need about a 4gpm pump.

2)I couldn’t find much information about reservoir size, are there any recommendations? I know a lot of people use the loader arm.

3)How do I bleed the current system, it seems like my left lifting cylinder has some air in it, seems to lag the right one by about a half inch, making my bucket un even.


Hopefully I’ll figure out how to get a couple photos loaded

I believe one I got 4-8 gpm pump. At 1800 RPM it's 4 gpm and 8 gpm 3600 RPM, but I have to check. at lease gal. I making tanks so I can have a 4-5 gal. capacity. But, I'm building back hoe.

Jeremy

You say "ran off the rear", I assume you mean off the hydrostat??
The internal pump is small, but is large enough to operate a loader. If the system seems weak, check the charge pump output pressure and correct as necessary. It's in the chassis service manual.

If you add a pump, you will have to add a reservoir. Plus all that work. I'd just fix the charge pump pressure and see how it works.


If you think one cylinder has air in it, all you do to remove it is do a couple complete cycles of the cylinder. Full up to full down. Air can make it "lag" behind, but I doubt that is the issue. A "T" hydraulic system will split the load equally between the two cylinders. If one is behind the other, it's likely that the builder didn't get the frame made the same on both sides.

But, if you want to make a mount, and reservoir, do all that plumbing.... be my guest. You may find you have the same issues still....

I also have a 1450 with a Johnson loader on it. When I got it, it was also run off the ported pump. I added a separate hydraulic pump, ( and power steering) the ported pump just does not have enough power for the loader for what you want to do. After changing mine to a dedicated pump it made a world of difference. Here is the pump I used https://www.northerntool.com/shop/to...9708_200329708
If you are going to run it off a pulley, make sure the pump is rated for a side load. I ran mine off the front PTO. Hope this helps

First of all thank you all for the responses and input!

Yes sorry, still learning the terms and the workings of everything, thank you for the clarification.


Interesting, I've seen people stating both- existing hydro will work and other saying it isn't sufficient. Ideally I would be able utilize the existing pump. and I would like to eliminate other issues along the way. I have been reading through the chassis manual (thanks for pointing me in this direction) and I will pick up a gauge and a 1/8th adapter and test what I have coming out of it now

That was my initial thought as well, I did some rough measurements down to about an 1/8th inch and everything seems equal from side to side and level. When I take measurements of the ram/pistons (sorry don't know the right term) the right one is always ahead by about a half inch that is until it reaches the top then the left one catches up and everything then becomes level.

It’s tricky to see here is another pic of the support.

I bought the tractor from a guy who bought it at an auction non-running. He fixed the spark issues and decided he wanted more lift capacity and sold it to me.

Does it matter how the T is hooked up, as in where the supply line goes in and which ones go out? The way this T is hooked up makes sense from a space perspective. But not sure if the T’s are in any way directional. In my picture my finger is on the supply coming from the valve. The 90 goes to the right cylinder and the straight goes to the left cylinder.

It shouldn't matter but then again I try to plumb the supply into the branch of the tee with the load out of the run. Then run equal length and diameter hoses to the cylinders.

If a 3pt hitch can lift 1000 lbs off the charge pump, you have something wrong only able to lift 200 lbs.

But it might be doing your tractor a favor since THOSE FRONT ENDS ARE NOT BUILT to load the piss out of them.

Could be the builder derated the charge pump to protect his tractor.

Are cycle times the same when it's loaded and empty?

Okay that could be part of my issue as well. My right hose is about a foot long and my left hose is about 4 feet long. I’ll start with trying to bleed the cylinder first then maybe toy with equal length hoses.

When loaded it slows significantly.

Sounds more like a weak relief, or possibly even pump. You really need to check the pressure relief setting. I'm guessing it's cracking after a load is placed on it allowing some fluid to bypass into the rear end. It's a fairly straight forward procedure, and always the first that should be done after changing filter and hyd fluid if those are unknowns.

If you don't know the pressure, you are wasting your time with anything else.

I was able to run the pressure tests tonight. Running with no load spec is 200psi max, I was just shy of 200psi. With load the spec is 500-625psi i hovered right around 600psi. I did another test with 200lbs in the bucket and watched the gauge to see if it dropped off but it stayed consistent at 600psi.

The comment about 1000lbs off the rear end I think falls inline with what the loader is currently lifting considering the weight of the loader + the 200lb load and considering the geometry of the front lift compared to the rear lift seems to make some sense maybe?? :big think:

Nonetheless, I think I would like a little more lift power out of the loader and probably will end up putting a dedicated pump on it, not necessarily to carry the loads around but I think it would just help for breaking items free and digging capabilities. Currently when I press down with the loader it struggles to get the wheels off the ground and put the weight into the blade for scraping.

Does the Johnson loader have a reservoir in the loader post, or what did you end up doing for a reservoir? Thanks for the link, I like the fact that it has multiple GPM outputs. Didn't know that was a thing (again this is all new to me)

Did you couple directly to the front end, if so did you notice any more resistance starting?

Before you go making anything else, I have questions:

1.)How is the loader valve tied into the system? Is there still a hydraulic lift on the tractor? Or is the loader the only valve?

2.) Does the loader valve also have a relief valve. I'm betting it does. Most add on valves do.


Here's some more info:
IH had the implement relief set at 600 PSI for the GT's because that's all they needed for their hydraulic system. The pump can handle much more. Shim the relief valve to 1000 PSI. The SGT's used the same pump, but were set at 900 PSI. The pump will handle at least 1000 PSI safely without issue. It would probably handle 1500, but I don't think you need that much for a loader.

On another note, the PO who built the loader did a nice job, but the bucket is really far forward. If you wanted to help it out a lot, you could re-engineer it. But that may be more work than you want.

On another, another note, loaders on GT's are not really that useful. The JD guys who have loaders on their tractors are knows the really load them down to the point of stupid in my opinion. But, their GT's were designed to have an OEM loader on them too, so they are made a bit better. CC's were not designed with a loader in mind.

This is the ONLY loader I have ever seen that looks correct on a GT. Correctly mounted, correctly made, correctly proportioned. I've never seen it in person, but I bet it works the best too. If I ever build one, I too will copy the IH 2250 quick mount loader. (The one this one is modeled after.) Look at the angle of the cylinders in the down position. Everyone who builds a GT loader does it wrong IMHO. This is how they should be made.


Click on the pic for a larger image:

Attachment 91131

Well, you are in range with factory setting.

Yes, geometry, cylinder bore and stroke, and hydraulic pressure all effect the lifting ability. Cylinder angle can drastically effect your ability one way or another. Same with pressure and surface area (bore) respectively.


Your loader seems to be modeled after a loader built for G/T's. Since you are trying to run the attachment at less than half of the psi typically supplied to these units by means of a aux gear pump, you will only have less than half of the results. This is known now from your test results.

You can shem the relief to get more pressure. My 1864 runs 800-850 psig or 864.92psia :biggrin2:

However, this can shorten the life of the charge pump if you are constantly working at relief pressure. Have been told by a very smart dude once that 1000 psig is attainable, but the life can severely shorten particularly if you are constantly loading the piss out of the hydraulic system.

Your going to need larger bore cylinders to continue using the hydro pump, or use a gear pump and do all the plumbing.

(Edit: I agree with everything Jmech said, but the pressure seems a lil high!)

That's absolutely awesome, perfect size, sucked in to the tractor and not ridiculously huge. All gt loaders I have seen remind me of all the loaders ever made for th M Farmall.

I appreciate you keep throwing questions my way even when it appears my mind is made up. It is helping facilitate growth of knowledge for me....

1- The supply comes off of the lift valve (for the deck) on the steering column. The return runs directly back into the pump. I don't think i'll ever use the hydro lift so I could tie the out/supply directly back to the pump rather than the deck lift and eliminate that entire system if that would help at all.

2- I believe so, again not super familiar with hydraulics but going off of looks I think what i am pointing at here is probably a relief, I assume your follow up question is, "what psi is this relief valve?" I have googled the numbers a bit on the valve and unfortunately I'm struggling finding any information.

Here is the pic, sorry I forgot.

If they ran off the return port of the dash valve, then to the loader valve you should be fine. There is no internal relief in the dash valve, and no way for it to bypass, unless the spool is bad.... but that is possible. Might be better to put it downstream of the loader, or eliminate it altogether. (Likely isn't affecting it though.)

You can test the output of that relief valve if need be, but I imagine unless someone has messed with it, it's set at around 1500-1800 psi. No need to check it yet.

When you tested the charge pump pressure, did you use the loader valve, or the dash valve (for the deck lift)? Use the deck lift valve as it is first in the system, and guarantees you are reading the charge pump relief and not the loader valve relief.

By the way, there are two relieve valves on the hydro. One for charge pump supply, and one for implement lift. If you shim it, make sure to shim the correct one. Book tells you how.


Trent:
Check the books.... SGT's run at 700-900 psi for the implement relief. You won't hurt it going to 1000.

Yeah, a loader for an M installed on a GT. :biggrin2:


I hate all the GT loaders that are out there. Only one I like is the JD44 loader because it actually looks like it fits decent, and seems to work really well. But it was an OEM attachment, so it makes sense.

I tested first with the deck lift valve and then tested with the loader valve, didn't notice any change. Ill do a bit of digging to see if i can find a shim kit tomorrow of if i can find something else to make it work.

IIRR,
shims are no more than small washers.
I believe there is a chart either from sundstrand or in the cub manual,(or both)
that give poundage increase per thousands of thickness,
for the implement relief valve.
A pressure gauge and assorted shims/washers will get you there easily.:beerchug:

You will need a washer 1/4" od. Sometimes they are hard to find.

Yes I did use the post reservoir and went a little oversized on the suction and pressure line to the valve just for more fluid. the suction side I used 3/4" and 1/2" for the pressure side. As far as the drive for the pump I used the front electric PTO originally on the 1450, so I can turn it on and off when not in use. I used a 5" sheave on the pump to match the one on the PTO. That way I did not have to worry about to fast a rotation on the pump.

Attachment 91144

Attachment 91145

Attachment 91146

Attachment 91147

Attachment 91148

Attachment 91149

Attachment 91150

Thanks for the tips about the washers, my implement valve didn't have any shims in it when I took it apart. I was able to get 3mm washers from Menards that fit perfectly, it took about 4 of them to get it shimmed to 850-900PSI. This made a huge difference with responsiveness of the loader, it now will pick up the front end and will lift 200lbs with no struggle. I'm not sure what the capacity is now but it doesn't hesitate with 200ish like it did before. This is great.

I am assuming there is more performance to be had with an individual pump. This might be enough for me as is, I am going to use it as is for now and see if it leaves me wanting more.

I am still a little leery about shimming the pump this much, maybe I need to do more research on the pump to settle my nerves but everything else in life seems to have consequences when they are pushed outside specs. I feel like I am feeding a gas engine nos or alcohol sure its fun and great now but how long do I have :biggrin2:

Sparky40- thanks for all the pictures and the information, if/when I decide I want more power or don't want to abuse the existing pump I will probably use the same set up you have. I like the larger hoses for capacity tip!

Well, if you will listen to me, your nerves will be fine. This is the last time I am going to say this..... the super garden tractors (like the 982) use THE SAME PUMP and the implement relief pressure is set to 700-900 PSI.

To back up my advice, I have been a heavy equipment tech for 20 years, with vast hydraulic experience. I know that pump well, and I'm certain you are still well under its limit.

As far as advantages to a seperate pump.... Maybe more flow if you get one with a larger GPM, but then you will only be able to push "X" amount of fluid through the hoses and valve.... so you may not gain enough to justify the cost. I had the GPM of the rear pump figured, and posted it here before, but can't recall the GPM. Sticks in my mind it's around 5 GPM at WOT.

Awesome, thanks again for all the help. As far as I can tell. You have come up with a 39 cent (washers) solutions for my issue and I have learned things along the way.

Here are some pictures in action. Someone feel free to chime in how to rotate images.

Here is a snipit from the Sunstrand manual with the specs for the hydro.

Don't do that, no it won't help. You'll be wishing you would have left it on if you ever want to have a rear-mounted implement

Jon, I would if I knew how to read... That said I still think your numbers a bit high ^^^^^^^

If you are using and iPhone to take the photos I have to turn my phone 90 Degrees/ hold it sideways and it fixes that. Can't say that will fix it for android but it's worth a shot.

Not sure if I should have added this to this thread or create a new thread. I can change if needed. I am looking to add power steering and just wanted to run this past you guys before I invest into hoses or making lines.

I have future plans for a separate pump for the loader if needed. Seems to be working fine as is, perhaps this will change once the power steering is added.

Below you will find a flow of my current set up and how I am proposing to set it up as well as an image of the steering I got off a 3206, Axle is from a 1541 (one inch spindle upgrade) I believe.

Sorry forgot the picture of the steering

It won't change anything.


That is the correct way to plumb the system. Not sure how well that crank arm off the 3206 will attach to the spindle on the 1541. Probably going to have to make or buy some other parts. (That's an off the cuff comment, without looking to verify any of the components and their interchangeability between the different series.)

Thank you Sir for the confirmation. I found a fantastic youtube video that demonstrates the all the plumbing from the valve. There is one additional line that is a return non-pressure that I do not have included above and will have to tie into the return from the loader. I'll re-draw the visio once I confirm everything works, just in case anyone else find themselves in a similar situation.

The lines that come out of the steering valve have a flared ring like an automotive fuel injection line, Is there a tool to make these lines, or can I just cut the existing lines and flair the other end fitting on them?

I find all the computer drawing stuff.......entertaining to say the least. It's a pretty simple system.... Not worth the time to draw it out on a computer. Hell, I wouldn't even draw it on paper before making it, but whatever helps you. It will work. I promise. But if you need to build it to confirm, whatever. :BlahBlah:


The lines that come out of the steering handpump have those fitting where? On the other end? No.. no, you cannot make those. They are different from automotive fuel injection fittings. BTDT. I thought I could make them because I have the tool. It didn't work. I don't know what kind of fitting they are.

If I was doing this build, I'd make all new lines. I wouldn't try to bend, cut and flare the ones from the other tractor. Make new that fit your machine.

There are 7 lines coming from or going to the steering. I personally need to draw it out to help me keep it straight especially to limit trips to the store. :bash2:

I’ll have to run to the local supply store in the morning to get a better feel for what they have available. I have gotten hoses from them in the past but they are all threaded not clamped in. Not sure what the fitting is called so here is a pic all the lines are these fittings on both ends. So I need these type fitting on the valve end then screw on, everywhere else. Tractor Supply probably has ends and this is probably a dumb question, I’ll find out in the morning.

There are only 5 lines on the steering.
In, out, case drain and 2 to the cylinder.

Those fittings are tube o-ring. You can't buy them. Or at least most placed don't stock them. (Don't want to say *can't*. Obviously, they make them.) You'll figure it out.....

That's why I wouldn't use a power steering sector from a 3000 series. Can't get fittings. Should have gotten one from an older machine.

You can cut them off, flare the cut end and adapt that way. Maybe that was what you were asking before, and I just didn't understand.

:bigthink: yes 5 not 7. My bad.

Okay, good to know. Luckally I have a few ends here so if I mess up I can get a second go at them.

Thanks for the prompt responses, really appreciated.

When making hard lines out of 3/8 brake lines. Do I just use an automotive flare tool and do a double flare? The reason why I ask is because I think automotive flares are 45 degree and JIC are 37, I can also use a flaring tool that I have for gas lines which I think is a 37 but I cannot do a double flare with that.