Something must have broke inside the engine
 

Hi,

I was mowing with my 129 (which a few months ago had significant work done to it including a valve replacement and other engine work) and I heard something break - figured it was a mechanical piece underneath the tractor somewhere, but checked and all is fine. When trying to start it, all that happens is the front pulley is turning but there is obviously no compression. If I look through the site hole that is used to check the timing - that part is turning. Any thoughts on what this might be? Obviously, the head has to be pulled to see if the piston and valves are moving. Not sure how much more money I want to put into a 45 year old tractor. I could get a rebuilt Kohler engine for it (have been wrangling over this for the past few years), but just not sure that would be the best decision. If I decide to replace the Cub, any suggestions on what to buy?

Sounds like you broke a rod.

I rebuilt Kohlers and sell them. I've got 20 years experience as an engine builder. I've got a K301 I can ship you.
http://www.onlycubcadets.net/forum/s...ad.php?t=52504

I would fix the 129. Good tractor. Cheaper to fix than replace it anyway.

Yes. If your engine is shot, put a rebuilt Kohler back in this one or get yours rebuilt (if it is salvageable. I don't know what all is wrong, so it may be bad, it may not). You're going to spend a pretty penny on a good certified Kohler, but it will be a cheap investment to get another 45 years out of it. Also, your machine isn't going to depreciate in value. They only made so many, and each year, fewer and fewer are alive. Rebuilding this cub will be an investment, but one that will hold it's value. Buying a new machine will get you back riding, but do the right thing and save this cub.:beerchug:

Pull the spark plug and put a long wooden dowel in the hole and turn engine it over. Then tell us how much it goes up and down, if at all.

I would thing that turning the engine over during this test should be done "by hand"..?:bigthink:

yeah....I'd think by hand would be best. I'll do that, although probably removing the head is the best way to see what's going on. Since the shaft coming out of the engine into the trans appears to be rotating normally, then it almost has to be a valve or piston/rod issue.

:):):):):)The cub might be able to get an additional 45 years of longevity, but if so the total span of that surely won't be with me!

Pulled the head...both valves appear to be working normally, but piston doesn't move.

You can't do that on a K series Kohler. The spark plug is over the valves, not the piston.


It broke the rod. Motor is done. :Sorry:

Broken connecting rod

Talk to Jon about one of his rebuilt engines :beerchug:

Get Jonathan to rebuild yours if it can be or get the K301 he has ready. A new mower will cost more and will not last as long.

I guess a valid question that enters into making this decision is - how long will the rest of the tractor last? The whole thing is as old as the engine. Spindles on the deck certainly aren't getting any better; trans leaks fluid (albeit slowly), oil pan bolt has given issues over the years, left front wheel eats through bearings (I keep a supply of at least a dozen at all times), a few bracket-related pieces associated with attaching the plow have already broken and needed to be welded, etc.

Don't get me wrong - I think it's apparent by now that I'm obviously very sentimentally attached to this old thing, but just don't know if - all things considered - this (putting in a rebuilt engine) is the way to go? I'm leaning towards doing that - especially since I already have the plow for the cub (that TOO is 40+ years old!) but....is it really the right thing? I don't like the idea of the lesser quality and longevity of the new machines, but on the other hand I have fewer mowing days ahead of me than are behind.

Jonathan is really too far away from me for him to do the work, but am consulting with him about the 301 he has ready.

Its an OLD lawnmower, there are lots of things that are probably worn out. Make a list of everything that needs replacing and what their cost is. This is assuming you can do the work.
Common items guys here rebuild are:
tie rod ends
steering box
drive shaft and all connections
PTO
belts, idler pulleys, spindle bearings, blades, gauge wheels (decks can be very expensive to put back in new condition, but if the deck is solid, then its worth it)
carburetor--sometimes the shafts are worn out really bad
muffler
seat
key switch
throttle and choke cables
front wheel bearings and the wheel itself if it destroys bearings
front spindles
hydro/rear end--fix leaks, worn trunnion, fluid change
tires (if they hold air all season and aren't literally coming apart, I call them good)


Look at all these things, see what needs replacing and do the math. It may be cheaper to junk the machine. It may be better to fix it up and have something rock solid.

Its a good feeling to hop on an older Cadet that has been "gone through" and mow your grass with no worries about it breaking down.

Oh yeah, most of us don't bother with paint if it has to earn its keep. That's a labor of love to do it any where close to right--and a shiny ride doesn't mean it will reliably take car of your lawn.

What "other" work was done to it?

Head all cleaned up and planed; one valve replaced, new carb, new coil, voltage regulator...at least that is what my brother mentioned on the invoice. No other major work was done. It ran great after I got it back.

In also considering the option of replacing the Cub, just talked to a local outfit who sells and recommends the Simplicity "Conquest". The guy there also knows and has worked on the old Cubs - along with the Kohler engines - so he is very familiar with my equipment. His personal preference would be to not put an engine into a 40+ year old tractor, but he would do the work for me. Outlay on the Conquest (with blade and deck) would be close to $6k. Approximate cost to fix the Cub probably in the range of $1k - $1,200 (including the rebuilt engine)

Uncertain of what is the best option here.

No brainer for me.

This is a classic Cub website. What do you think we're going to recommend?:bigthink:

gretschwhtfalcon, other plan is to become the proud owner of a turbo diesel 782...:bigthink:

Sorry...you're absolutely right. :bash2:

It's easy rebuild the kohler and fix the list of problems one at a time. I bought a 169 at a farm auction it was being sold as a tiller go figure that one out I've used it 2 years the 16hp kohler started put more oil out than in. It's in the shop getting the crank turned and block bored for the new piston and rod and it will go another 40 plus years plus I've put in a new wiring harness stearing gear rebuild and other things when I have time and money and it will out last a new one by far . Just my 2 cents

I call it therapy when I go mow with my 1282 or 782. Gas is way cheaper than what therapist charge so I say rebuild the engine.

At least Check it out first before jumping to conclusions.
You can easily do that much yourself with basic hand tools.
Post up some pictures of what you find.
At best it may only cost you a rod and a crank polish.
But if pieces got into the cylinder wall then all bets are off.

Guys, I've been emailing back and forth with Keith. We know it broke a rod. It needs an engine, and I have one for him. He just needs convinced it is a good choice to fix a 45 year old tractor.

When I was in high school I worked for a neighbor that has a 122 and a 1000. I was on the 122 and the engine just stopped running - no warning. It cranked over real fast when I tried to start it. I towed it back with the 1000 and dug in. The piston wouldn't move when I turned the crankshaft just like your machine.

I tore down the engine and found the rod shattered in the bottom of the pan. I honed the cylinder and put in a new rod and piston. I put it all back together and it fired up like new. This was the first time I had done internal engine work. Today I repair my cars along with cars for friends. A lot of the confidence I have comes from lawnmower and tractor repairs I did when I was younger.

You can look at your tractor as a broken machine that needs to be replaced or you can look at it as an opportunity to learn how to replace a rod and piston. Not only that money can't buy a replacement garden tractor brand new of the same quality of a 40+ year old Cub Cadet. Really, you have nothing to loose if you tear the engine find and inspect the cylinder for damage. If the rod shattered like the 122 I worked on all those years ago you could repair the engine for not a lot of cash if you do it yourself. There's plenty of us on this board that have been in Kohler engines because of these fine garden tractors that can help if you get into trouble. Original factory service manuals are also available on this web site.

I tend to like to keep things as original as possible. I have the 1000 that I used at the neighbor's place at my home now. It has the original engine and has mostly original parts. I also have a 1450 that I got as a basket case. I built it from the ground up. It too has the original engine. If you decide to keep it there are plenty of us on this board that have rebuilt Kohler engines that can help if you get into trouble.

Bob

Why is it when Jeff comes along and offers to sell parts everyone supports him, but when I try to sell a motor everyone wants to try to convince people to rebuilt it themselves?
Honing the motor out and cleaning the crank off with emry cloth is a very bad way to "fix" the engine. I've rebuilt several for people who did just that. They honed it and polished the crank with emry, and in 20 hours brought me a motor with a broken rod and couldn't understand why. If so many guys on here have done this and will help, how come me and like 2 other gus are the only ones who ever give advice on rebuilds?? Keith has said he is not a mechanic, or inclined to do this type of repair. His brother, however is, but isn't interested in doing it. I think Keith can swap the motor out, and I have offered to sell him a brand new one to drop in. Guys...... come on. He's not going to rebuild the old one himself. He told me so.

Ask yourself if the expensive Simplicity will be running 40+ years from now as the Cub is....

If you like the old Cub, fix it. Yes, all mowers including the new one will break. Do what most of us here do, get a back-up mower so when one is down the other is good. Even if you spend say another 1000 on a good 1864, that is still a lot less than 6k. That is a lot of money just to cut the grass.

There's plenty of used tractors out there with good engines too, if you want to buy one and have another with spare parts.

Yes you could buy a used tractor for parts, perhaps even a used motor, but if you want years of dependability at a reasonable investment buy Jon's motor and be done with it.

I vote for putting it back in use. I have two 1968 model 125's that are my everyday tractors.

One for summer duty and the other for snow duty. I started with one and just changed implements depending on the season.

Jon does great work and it would be money well spent. Plus you would need to spend big money to get the same quality lawn and garden tractor today.

Jeff

My 2 cents.

If your not really mechanically inclined. Buy Jon's engine and put it back together. You will have many many years of trouble free service with regular maintenance. Follow his break in procedure to the letter and you will be fine. Everything else on that tractor can be easily replaced for little cost and little mechanical knowledge with the forums help. There may be cheaper alternatives but your comparing apple to oranges really. Used engine.... who knows you might get lucky, or ya get a smoker or one that throws another rod. Someone here said rebuild yourself.... don't do it.. don't let a buddy at work talk you into doing it. Just not worth putting an engine together wrong and trying costly new parts in a month. Anyway.. good.luck with it:beerchug:

Thanks to all...I really appreciate each and every post, as it is helpful in arriving at a decision. My brother said he'd certainly do the work, but just thinks personally that it's not worth putting money into. I also worry about the turnaround time in his shop. A local dealer (the Simplicity guy) would also do this work for me but has said it'd be several weeks till he even would get to it.

As Jon has said, we've been in contact and are discussing it. If I decide to fix the Cub, I'll undoubtedly buy the engine from him.

Just out of curiosity...I looked in the manual to see the instructions for removing the engine. Can't believe how few there actually are...1) removal of fuel tank and panel extensions, coil/generator wire disconnections and generator removal, PTO linkage and removal, motor/generator belt removal, choke and throttle disconnections, and removal of engine mounting bolts (are there 4 in all?). That's all that's listed...and all very familiar to me with the exception of the mounting bolts.

What wonders me is that there is nothing stated about disconnecting anything in the rear of the engine. What about the driveshaft, etc. running into the trans? Can't imagine the engine separates from the rear without doing something. I suppose it's all moot anyway since I don't have a hoist to actually lift the engine out of the tractor. I see the weight is roughly 120 lbs on a K-301 (?) Someone on another forum told me the 301 is "easy" to lift out, so thought I'd read about it. Perhaps being a bit overconfident in saying this - but it really does look like something that I could do, had I the means to lift it out. I'm sure it's much harder in reality than just reading about it in the manual however! So if I had a new 'drop-in' engine AND the means to do it, I'd be more than willing to tackle it. Buying a hoist - even if ever using it twice - would probably be a heck of a lot cheaper than having to send the tractor to a shop.

I'm still betting there's more to it than I'm reading, especially relative to whatever mechanical linkages there are between engine and trans.

Ok, You do not really need an engine hoist. The 301 Is Not overly heavy. Be careful if you have a bad back or call a buddy to help lift it out. You will be just disconnecting anything that attaches to the engine and another component. Step one. disconnect the battery. Then take some pictures with your phone for later reference since this is your first time. Now just start on one side and start disconnection of carb, fuel line, linkage etc.. then move to other side. Unbolt the starter and lay it aside. No need to disconnect the wires really. Go slow. Get an old coffee can to collect blots and such.. Its really easier than you think. Have fun with it! and good luck.

Theres really not more than your reading.. Its actually pretty simple.

Cooperino....thanks. Just read on another forum about a guy who also took a 301 out with no hoist! Pretty amazing. Said he just "muscled it out of there"...lol I assume (this has to be a no-brainer) that you need something supporting the bottom as you begin removing mounting bolts? Otherwise won't the engine drop to the floor? I have to look at it more closely. I've worked around the thing over the past 47 years doing various jobs but never really looked around the engine from bottom and top to examine what actually holds it in. Then, of course, there's getting the new engine out of whatever shipping crate it came in and up and over the top of the tractor. I don't believe I have quite the strength I had in my younger days! I'm very used to keeping copious notes and pictures when I do any job - since it does not came "natural" to me to simply know what goes where and in what order when doing reassembly. Ripping stuff apart is easy (and fun!)...reverse not quite the same.

The engine sits on the frame and is bolted in from the bottom. Don't fear, it won't fall out.

Nothing to disconnect on the driveshaft.

Engine without the flywheel, starter and PTO weighs about 70lbs give or take.

Nothing at all to disconnect on that rear end? Surprising. I can't quite picture how it would separate so easily. So you also concur that this can be done without a hoist? What would worry me infinitely more than taking the old one out is damaging something putting the new one in. It just seems like it has to be one of those "looks easier than it actually is" jobs.

Then there's also the problem of shipping the core. A concern here, as I've expressed before, is whether or not the core would even be accepted if indeed the broken rod damaged it inside.

Shipping the core to who?? Someone else, or me?? I take care of all that. You need not worry. If you buy from someone else, then I have no idea how they handle it.
As long as I get a motor back and block is salvageable then you get a core credit. Seldom are the blocks damaged beyond repair. Only seen a few that were totally junk. Everything in the engine would have to be junk before I wouldn't refund at least a partial core.

Given that you are in PA, I'm sure you could find a good used engine that you could hear run in your general area. You're in Cub Heaven in PA. If you need to ship one, check Fastenal. I've shipped several heavy items via that route. It's surprisingly affordable and they care about your stuff. Yes, THAT Fastenal. There's several guys on this forum or the Facebook cub forums with good track records. You're talking about~300$ (options, how long you want to shop and the phase of the moon may account for differences in price). Just another option for you.

:bigthink:

I have an engine hoist but I've found it faster to just lift the engines. You don't have to carry it , just move it from the frame to the ground. Remove the S/G and you should be able to move it yourself. I'm no spring chicken and can still do it.

Hope you get your mower going again soon.