KT17 Ignition Problems

[Dustyroads]

Good day, I have a new to me yellow Cub/IH 682 with a KT17. I got the tractor knowing the prior owner couldn't get spark, however I knew it was running well before. Only used to blow snow, it was running in the summer and quit a few months later when he went to fire it up to clean off his driveway.

The prior owner changed out the coil and ignition wires. I don't think the coil was correct so I ordered a dual coil from Kirk Engines. I also picked up a Kirk point saver incase the problem was the original condenser. I hooked it all up, re-gapped the points to 0.020" and turned her over...no spark. The point saver blinks as the points open and close, I measured 12.xV on the positive side of the coil, but after cranking a few more seconds I was getting 9.5V. I'm going to try and hook it up with a better battery to rule that out. Is there anything else I should be considering?

Thanks for the help.

[R Bedell]

First, welcome to OCC....

How did you wire up the Kirk Point Saver.....????? Diagrams would be most helpful.

[dvogtvpe]

but you didn't change the points?

[Dustyroads]

I wired the point savers per the directions that came with it, was very simple.

I did not replace the points as they looked brand new. They were gapped too tight though, about 0.010. I doubled over some 320 sand paper and cleaned them up before setting them again. I doubled checked they were properly operating with an ohm meter as well. Setting them to 0.020" just as they opened.

I'm assuming that the LED on the point saver flashes as the points either open or close?

Thanks,
Dustin

[J-Mech]

Your supposed to set the points at the specific gap at their max open position. Not "when they first start to open".

[Mike McKown]

Originally Posted by Dustyroads

I'm assuming that the LED on the point saver flashes as the points either open or close?

Thanks,
Dustin

I'm not familiar with the gadget you have but that sounds right. I'd think if the LED is flashing, you'd have some kind of spark.

[Dustyroads]

I used the method below to set the point's gap.

http://mgonitzke.net16.net/tools/static_timing.pdf

I'm going work on it a little bit this week. I'm thinking of pulling the old (only a year or two, but not well taken care of) battery out and hooking up a deep cycle I have in my garage that I know is in good shape to take the batter out as a variable.

Ignition wires also may be good to replace. I found that Kirk Engines sells them pretty cheap. Any other good sources? They seem to be hard to find locally & i'm not totally convinced the replacement I bought which you cut to length and stick an end on is really a quality wire.

[J-Mech]

Originally Posted by Dustyroads

I used the method below to set the point's gap.

http://mgonitzke.net16.net/tools/static_timing.pdf

This write up does not go with your statement:

I doubled checked they were properly operating with an ohm meter as well. Setting them to 0.020" just as they opened.

Your explanation is confusing. You should set the points to just open when at the proper mark on the flywheel. Gap is irrelevant. If you are setting them by a meter, then gapping them then you just ruined what you did. Set them with a light or a meter, throw the feeler gauge back in the toolbox.

Here's another write up I did. I don't like the multimeter way. To many things to hold.

FWIW, the LED on the "Point Saver" doesn't take much to make it light. If you didn't get the points clean, then it may still light the LED, but not contact good enough to charge the coil. Sand them again, then slide a dollar bill through them. Fold the bill at least 3 times, and slide it back and forth. This will clean any residue off of them. You can also check with your test light to make sure they are working. Test light is much more reliable than the Point Savers LED. Just because I can't keep my opinions to myself, Point Saver's are a waste of money. Nothing wrong with the original set-up and I have seen a couple instances where they didn't work (bad out of the box) and that was the issue. Remember, just because a part is new doesn't mean it's good. Might also try and start the engine with the point cover off and see if the points are arcing.

Originally Posted by Dustyroads

Ignition wires also may be good to replace. I found that Kirk Engines sells them pretty cheap. Any other good sources? They seem to be hard to find locally & i'm not totally convinced the replacement I bought which you cut to length and stick an end on is really a quality wire.

Yes, ignition wires are a good thing to replace. The ones you made yourself should be fine as long as you did it right. This isn't a car with an HEI ignition. Old copper wires are fine. That's what they came with. No need to buy "direct fit" ones.

[Dustyroads]

This write up does not go with your statement:
Quote:
I doubled checked they were properly operating with an ohm meter as well. Setting them to 0.020" just as they opened.

Let me clarify a bit. I used the ohm meter to find exactly when the points opened. with the points cover off I rocked it back and forth so that I could find the point in time where they were at their max open. I set the gap to 0.020" tightened and re-checked to ensure the gap didn't change when I torqued them down.

Set them with a light or a meter, throw the feeler gauge back in the toolbox.

Here's another write up I did. I don't like the multimeter way. To many things to hold.

So, if I understand this correctly, you're not using a feeler gauge at all. Rather, you're finding the time at which the points just break contact. If the points are breaking at just the right time when the "S" is in the sight window the gap will take care of it self because the timing is really driven by the lobe on the cam shaft. If that lobe is in contact and breaking the points when the S is in the right location, as it follows through the stroke they'll also close at the proper time as well since it's duration is completely driven by the cam. Please correct me if i'm wrong.

Sand them again, then slide a dollar bill through them. Fold the bill at least 3 times, and slide it back and forth. This will clean any residue off of them.

I will give this a shot again.

Might also try and start the engine with the point cover off and see if the points are arcing.

I'm glad you mentioned this because I had not thought of looking at the points themselves to see if they are arcing. I've been working on the engine with the cover off & hadn't thought to look & I hadn't casually noticed either as I was cranking the engine and focusing on the plug.

For the record, if I'm not getting any arc across the points gap, then what?

[J-Mech]

Originally Posted by Dustyroads

Let me clarify a bit. I used the ohm meter to find exactly when the points opened. with the points cover off I rocked it back and forth so that I could find the point in time where they were at their max open. I set the gap to 0.020" tightened and re-checked to ensure the gap didn't change when I torqued them down.

All you did was gap the points. You did not set the timing.

Originally Posted by Dustyroads

So, if I understand this correctly, you're not using a feeler gauge at all. Rather, you're finding the time at which the points just break contact. If the points are breaking at just the right time when the "S" is in the sight window the gap will take care of it self because the timing is really driven by the lobe on the cam shaft. If that lobe is in contact and breaking the points when the S is in the right location, as it follows through the stroke they'll also close at the proper time as well since it's duration is completely driven by the cam. Please correct me if i'm wrong.

Don't make it more complicated than it is. The amount of time that points are closed is called dwell. On this engine we are not concerned with the dwell. Just the point in which they open. So, yes set the "S" in the window and using the light set it so that the points just break contact...... Just like I explained in the article.

Originally Posted by Dustyroads

For the record, if I'm not getting any arc across the points gap, then what?

Make sure that you have the coil wired correctly, and it is working. If the points are in working order and everything is wired correctly and has good connections, then you have a failed component. Either the coil, or a plug wire or plug. Make sure you check spark on both plugs. If only one plug is firing, then there's a good chance that the coil is good and a plug wire is bad. However, it is possible to still be a bad coil. FWIW, this is a really simple ignition system with few components and failure points. With some very basic tools (test light) and checks, should only take a few minutes to find the problem.