2166 starting problem

[Wayne]

Originally Posted by ol'George

A fully charged battery should read about 12.6 volts after resting at least 12 hours.
By "jumping" just what are you doing?
Are you connecting both large terminals together to make the engine turn over with the starter using a screw driver, pliers or some such conducting device?

A solenoid normally has one lead from the battery + terminal, a large wire that is powered all the time.
When commanded by the key switch or other switch, 12V is applied to the small solenoid terminal, making the solenoid energize and allow that battery power to flow out the other large terminal to the starter, thus attempting to start the engine provided fuel,air and ignition are provided.
------Just a simple explanation
it is advised that caution is exercised as one is circumventing safety devices as well as safety neutral switches.

So how do I tell what the problem is?

[ol'George]

If putting a jumper wire from the + battery terminal to the small solenoid terminal produces the starter to turn, then the solenoid is ok, if not then the solenoid is bad.
Do check that the bolt mounting holes/feet on the sol. have good ground contact.
If the Sol. tests good, then you have a wiring problem that you have to follow the schematic/wiring diagram to see where the power is being lost.
One can back track from the sol. to the key source, checking each safety,
wire connection or device that is in the circuit, while the key is turned to the start position.
Do understand that normally, the clutch has to be pushed, and one sitting on the seat and the PTO switch has to be in the off position.
Assuming these safety devices are not already bypassed for testing purposes.

To some, this is intimidatingly, but it is as simple as following a garden hose to find the kink stopping the flow.
The circuit is not rocket science or designed to trick someone, or a mouse maze.
if one approaches it in that manner, it will become apparent what is not functioning as it should.
it is called process of elimination.
Only you can do this checking as we are not there physically, just in spirit.

[Wayne]

Originally Posted by ol'George

If putting a jumper wire from the + battery terminal to the small solenoid terminal produces the starter to turn, then the solenoid is ok, if not then the solenoid is bad.
Do check that the bolt mounting holes/feet on the sol. have good ground contact.
If the Sol. tests good, then you have a wiring problem that you have to follow the schematic/wiring diagram to see where the power is being lost.
One can back track from the sol. to the key source, checking each safety,
wire connection or device that is in the circuit, while the key is turned to the start position.
Do understand that normally, the clutch has to be pushed, and one sitting on the seat and the PTO switch has to be in the off position.
Assuming these safety devices are not already bypassed for testing purposes.

To some, this is intimidatingly, but it is as simple as following a garden hose to find the kink stopping the flow.
The circuit is not rocket science or designed to trick someone, or a mouse maze.
if one approaches it in that manner, it will become apparent what is not functioning as it should.
it is called process of elimination.
Only you can do this checking as we are not there physically, just in spirit.

OK, the solenoid is good then. Power from battery to small sol terminal turned the starter.

The PTO is not engaged but I don't know how to make sure any clutch/brake switch doesn't affect further diagnosis. That solenoid wire seems to disappear into a larger harness without a lot of easy access points.

[West Valley G]

There is no way you can visually see all the wires in the harness. You can
however find the termination points for almost everything. You will have to
trace. Continuity tester is your best friend here. You will need to look at the
schematics and begin connecting the wires and switches together in your mind.
It seems complicated and maybe it is but with some effort it will start to
make sense. It is a skill a person has to have in order to work on these
old machines. Besides you learn so much cool stuff.

Ken

[Wayne]

Originally Posted by West Valley G

There is no way you can visually see all the wires in the harness. You can
however find the termination points for almost everything. You will have to
trace. Continuity tester is your best friend here. You will need to look at the
schematics and begin connecting the wires and switches together in your mind.
It seems complicated and maybe it is but with some effort it will start to
make sense. It is a skill a person has to have in order to work on these
old machines. Besides you learn so much cool stuff.

Ken

I will never "learn" because I only need to know these things once in a while and I'll forget in between. But I can "do" if someone tells me how.

[ol'George]

We understand that, but you do have to take some initiative and use common sense/logic in learning, do not sell yourself short!
obviously you just lack self confidence.
look at the wiring diagram it is just as simple as water flowing through a hose or many hoses.
The power comes from the ignition switch then through safety switches, eventually to the solenoid switch,---- somewhere it has lost its continuity.
if you follow it and say it goes to a clutch switch, it should show up as 12V into the switch and with the clutch pushed down it should also show 12V coming out of the switch. if not, it is obviously a problem switch.
If power does flow through the switch it is ok and you need to go to the next path it travels on, where you no longer see 12V, that is the "broken" link in the circuit!
It is really simple and you are just working on the starting circuit, not all of the wires/circuits.
We will help you but you have to do your part, as we physically cannot.

[Wayne]

Originally Posted by ol'George

We understand that, but you do have to take some initiative and use common sense/logic in learning, do not sell yourself short!
obviously you just lack self confidence.
look at the wiring diagram it is just as simple as water flowing through a hose or many hoses.
The power comes from the ignition switch then through safety switches, eventually to the solenoid switch,---- somewhere it has lost its continuity.
if you follow it and say it goes to a clutch switch, it should show up as 12V into the switch and with the clutch pushed down it should also show 12V coming out of the switch. if not, it is obviously a problem switch.
If power does flow through the switch it is ok and you need to go to the next path it travels on, where you no longer see 12V, that is the "broken" link in the circuit!
It is really simple and you are just working on the starting circuit, not all of the wires/circuits.
We will help you but you have to do your part, as we physically cannot.

Well I lied a little bit, I do know how to check for resistance or continuity. And its not that I can't learn schematics its that I lack all motivation to do it so it won't happen. I'm a seat of the pants guy.

Anywho I've got continuity back to the main harness but don't even know where the switches are...are they the little black boxes that dead end out of the harness and subharness in a couple spots and if not, what are those? Will wait till tomorrow to work my way further up. Fortunately I got the trailer moved by other means

[Wayne]

So I'm stumped here. The subharness goes into the main harness in the plastic protector, then goes up to the dash where there is a Y. One arm of the Y goes to ignition, the other to the PTO knob. The wire I'm tracing from the small solenoid terminal is orange where it enters the main harness, but there are 3 orange wires (combined) in the 2 arms of the Y. None are giving me continuity to the single orange wire at the point just before it enters the main harness.

This suggests 2 things to me:

1) there is a break somewhere in the main harness and I need to tear it apart to find it

2) #1 is completely wrong, there is something I don't understand about the wiring that is causing this result, and I'll need help to get past this speed bump.

I'll bet dollars to donuts its #2.


PS-I probably should say resistance not continuity because that's what I am actually measuring so far. I have low resistance from the main harness to the solenoid

[West Valley G]

Have you verified that the safety switches are all functioning correctly.
Brake, PTO, and seat switches. I have never seen the exact machine you are
working on but all the tractors I have worked on the wire colors to the safeties
are orange. I looked at the service manual for your machine and there is
a ton of info on the electrical. Worth a read for sure.

http://service.mtdproducts.com/Train...000_series.pdf

Ken

[Wayne]

Originally Posted by West Valley G

Have you verified that the safety switches are all functioning correctly.
Brake, PTO, and seat switches. I have never seen the exact machine you are
working on but all the tractors I have worked on the wire colors to the safeties
are orange. I looked at the service manual for your machine and there is
a ton of info on the electrical. Worth a read for sure.

http://service.mtdproducts.com/Train...000_series.pdf

Ken

That is for tractors since 2011 and mine is at least 8 years older. Phew! I don't have to read it.

Well the actual wire to the small solenoid terminal is blue, FWIW, but once you follow it back to the first connector it connects to orange. Which makes sense, perhaps, if the authority to send juice has to come from one of the stupid safety switches that only makes this harder for an electrical incompetent like me.

Meanwhile, I have no trouble keeping my hands and feet away from a moving blade on a machine that lacks them.