Strength of the creeper?

[sawdustdad]

garnold, I put a creeper in my 148R build. I took a 14hp out of a 147 and put it in a 108, hence the "148" designation. I don't see any problem with that, you won't break the creeper. As J Mech has explained, it will only see the torque needed to spin the wheels, which isn't that much in most circumstances.

I'm no expert, but it's hard for me to see the creeper as a weak link in the drive train other than for the fact that it has more parts that can break. But a properly lubed and adjusted creeper should take anything the tractor is likely to see, regardless of what engine is in it.

[J-Mech]

Originally Posted by sawdustdad

garnold, I put a creeper in my 148R build. I took a 14hp out of a 147 and put it in a 108, hence the "148" designation. I don't see any problem with that, you won't break the creeper. As J Mech has explained, it will only see the torque needed to spin the wheels, which isn't that much in most circumstances.

I'm no expert, but it's hard for me to see the creeper as a weak link in the drive train other than for the fact that it has more parts that can break. But a properly lubed and adjusted creeper should take anything the tractor is likely to see, regardless of what engine is in it.

I agree 100%! I purchased a 1000 this summer with no motor. I plan to build it with a 16HP in it and also a creeper. I want the creeper for tilling. I have no reservations about it.

[garnold]

Thank you guys for all this information :-)

[Merk]

Originally Posted by J-Mech

This topic always seems to get debate. The same debate occurs with the "big" IH's and the Torque Amplifier. (Similar topic) I'm not trying to debate, but I can explain torque and how it affects the driveline. But I too have some questions about some previous statements.

I agree, that IH mostly had in mind that adding a creeper would give the operator more gear selections, and that the main purpose was to slow the tractor down. I however contend, that IH would not have put a gear reduction drive on the machine if it couldn't handle the load given it. That said, I do not argue that it is the weak link in the "chain" of the drive train.

Lets do it this way.
For this equation there can be several variables, so lets set some hard number to use. Let's assume that a stock Kohler K301 (12HP) is capable of producing 20 ftlbs of torque. (I'm sure that is high, but 20 is an easy number to work with, and I couldn't find an exact number.) Lets also assume that we can get all power from the engine to the ground. (No wheel slip.)
*Disclaimer: If I get a trans ratio incorrect, forgive me. It will change the results yes, but doesn't really change the point.

Now, 20ftlbs going into the creeper then becomes 80ftlbs because it is a 4:1 ratio. Going on to gear reduction drive, a ratio of 6:1 and now that torque becomes 480 ftlbs. Through first gear, 3:1, 1440 ftlbs. Ring and pinion, 4.6:1, 6624 ftlbs. Now comparatively without the creeper, in to out is 20ftlbs in, 1656ftlbs out. WOW! Quite a difference!

Now we all know that you would never be able to get all that torque to the ground, and even if you did, something is going to break. IH knew you couldn't get it ALL there, so no big deal. So.... here is the deal. Torque goes backward through the drivetrain as well as it does the other way. That engine only produces torque when it is put under a load. So the driveline only can withstand as much load as traction will allow, and as much torque as the motor can produce. The load on the driveshaft is the same, creeper or not, because the motor can only produce "X" amount of torque. Once again, I state, that I do not argue that a creeper is the weak link when in use. When it is not in use I cannot see how, unless it is not in tip top shape, that is would be any different than direct drive (no creeper).

Which brings me to my questions.



For my clarity I assume that you are referring to the largest engine in a gear drive?




How could that be? If you are running the creeper in direct drive, it IS a direct link from the driveline to the trans, minus a few extra "spirol" (or solid steel, whatever) pins? I don't see the difference....

I state again, I'm not tying to start a debate, or an argument. I agree a creeper is a weak link, but I don't buy the argument that when installed it is any more prone to break when not in use. Or the argument that it won't handle loads.

As far a tractor pulling is concerned, that is a different ball game. With A LOT of variables. As stated wheel speed is VERY important in pulling, so that is why they don't use them. You need power AND speed when tractor pulling. It's like getting a running start. More momentum.

12 horse power was the largest engine you could get in a IH Cub Cadet. A "big IH's Torque Amplifier" is a totally different thing. Main difference with a torque amplifer is you can shift on the move unlike the creeper where you have to stop the tractor to go to low to high or high to low.

Here is a pitcure of the internals parts in a creeper for those who haven't seem the inside of creeper:
http://www.cubcadet.com/webapp/wcs/s...0-A/0098100017

A IH Cub Cadet without a creeper has a drive shaft going into a coupler that goes into the imput shaft in the trans.

A IH Cub Cadet that has a creeper has a shorten drive shaft going into a coupler them imput creeper shaft #7. The creeper shaft has a small gear which Cub Cadet calls Direct Drive Coupling #9 that a shifter collar #10 and connects the power to driven coupling assembly #6. Weak point is the direct coupling #9.

Now if your is using creeper the shifter collar #10 moves over planet carrier assembly #11. The planet carrier assembly #11 has 3 planet gears #12 that spin around an imput shaft cage #16. The shifter collar #10 engages the gear on the planet carrier Assembly #11 and connects the power to to the driven coupling assembly. The weak area is the 3 planet gears #12.

One other area that can cause problems is the creeper shift yoke #23. Wear points are where the creeper shift yoke #23 rides against the shift collar #10.

As for not having a direct drive......you have a shift collar #10 that moves plus the gears that are not big enough to do the job. Sounds like a wreck waiting to happen.

You can put 14/16 horse power engines in your Cub Cadets. It's hard to use all that power to the ground unless you put some time and money into the clutch. Been there done that.

The only time I had drive shaft pins break is driver dumping the clutch or hole pin goes into is egg shape and the best one is using a wrong/cheap pin.

Its your Cub Cadet.....install a creeper if you want to....I wouldn't.

[Sam Mac]

Originally Posted by Merk

12 horse power was the largest engine you could get in a IH Cub Cadet. A "big IH's Torque Amplifier" is a totally different thing. Main difference with a torque amplifer is you can shift on the move unlike the creeper where you have to stop the tractor to go to low to high or high to low.

Here is a pitcure of the internals parts in a creeper for those who haven't seem the inside of creeper:
http://www.cubcadet.com/webapp/wcs/s...0-A/0098100017

A IH Cub Cadet without a creeper has a drive shaft going into a coupler that goes into the imput shaft in the trans.

A IH Cub Cadet that has a creeper has a shorten drive shaft going into a coupler them imput creeper shaft #7. The creeper shaft has a small gear which Cub Cadet calls Direct Drive Coupling #9 that a shifter collar #10 and connects the power to driven coupling assembly #6. Weak point is the direct coupling #9.

Now if your is using creeper the shifter collar #10 moves over planet carrier assembly #11. The planet carrier assembly #11 has 3 planet gears #12 that spin around an imput shaft cage #16. The shifter collar #10 engages the gear on the planet carrier Assembly #11 and connects the power to to the driven coupling assembly. The weak area is the 3 planet gears #12.

One other area that can cause problems is the creeper shift yoke #23. Wear points are where the creeper shift yoke #23 rides against the shift collar #10.

As for not having a direct drive......you have a shift collar #10 that moves plus the gears that are not big enough to do the job. Sounds like a wreck waiting to happen.

You can put 14/16 horse power engines in your Cub Cadets. It's hard to use all that power to the ground unless you put some time and money into the clutch. Been there done that.

The only time I had drive shaft pins break is driver dumping the clutch or hole pin goes into is egg shape and the best one is using a wrong/cheap pin.

Its your Cub Cadet.....install a creeper if you want to....I wouldn't.

Merk

Well said. Once told to me back in my dirt bike days by a Bultaco dealer "If it ain't there it can’t break" lesson learned. Just my 2 cents and I have never owned a creeper but it looks from a design standpoint like a problem looking for a place to happen.

I would only use one if I was running a blower or a tiller. Again just my 2 cents. Please don't hate me for this.

[Jeff in Pa]

Good explanation Merk.

When the creeper is used within its designed capabilities, it'll be fine. Start adding power, bigger tires, pulling excessive weight, etc is where you find the weakest link.

At one time, I had a 122 with creeper and a 125. Personally I liked the 125 ( hydro ) better. I had slow when I wanted slow and faster with a push of the lever.

That said, it's also why they make chocolate and vanilla ice cream

[4SPEED]

i concur, like said, I only use it with my tiller.

[4SPEED]

I use a MTD creeper...

[johncub7172]

The Direct Drive system found on a IH Cub Cadet started with the 70/100 Series, and was a major selling point for IH Cub Cadet. A under-drive unit was needed to slow the tractor ground speed down to allow for higher engine R.P.M operation, where one can now successfully and effectively use IH Cub Cadet approved implements such as the snow blowers, Sweepsters, Mott mowers, sickle bar mowers, and tillers. However, there is no substitute when it comes to having the most possible amount of torque transfer with the least amount chance of failure than that of the mechanical energy transfer system: {direct drive no under-drive} gear drive transmission. It has been suggested to me, that operating a IH Cub Cadet equipped with a creeper gear for such uses other than the IH recommendation of use is not recommended. My thinking on using a creeper would be good for everything but having a tug of war on concrete, and pulling a 10 inch bottom plow. Again, just what I think I can use a tractor equipped with a creeper for.

Make doubt, a gear drive with creeper or with out creeper is the best complement to a hydro drive IH Cub Cadet. The fact that someone can make a gear drive even slower sounds pretty neat. I wonder how that is if not than more than one creeper unit is on board in full operation with lower gear ratios : of course!

Six inches per minute,..........

[J-Mech]

Like I stated, I don't disagree with anything posted. It is definitely a weak point.

Originally Posted by Merk

A "big IH's Torque Amplifier" is a totally different thing. Main difference with a torque amplifer is you can shift on the move unlike the creeper where you have to stop the tractor to go to low to high or high to low.

I was really comparing the "argument", not the two units. The tractor guys argue that they fail if you use them. Which is similar to what we are talking about with the creeper. I am very familiar with a TA. Rebuilt and installed more than a fair share of them. Both the old mechanical, and the hydraulic. Honestly, the creeper and the T/A are really pretty similar. They are both gear reductions. They both use a planetary gear set. They both are placed at the front of the drivetrain to give reduction before the transmission. Makes sense really, since they were designed by the same company. I agree that the T/A was meant to be shifted "on the go" and that the creeper wasn't. The biggest difference is the T/A was an average 20% reduction (there were different ratios). Whereas the creeper was a 75% reduction.