How to lift a Kohler

[Cubby guy]

Originally Posted by cubs-n-bxrs

Thats because everything from an engineering standpoint works great on a piece of paper and a good mechanic knows better.

My late Dad worked for IH for 31 years, and I can't count how many times he came home grumbling " Oh boy, I'd love to find the sorry {strong descriptive language deleted } that designed this and talk to him with my hands!! "

[J-Mech]

Originally Posted by darryljs

big difference between torque (twisting) and pulling (pressure). If we crank the engine without supplying fuel or ignition (so there's no combustion), the compression stroke of the piston produces a modest pressure peak (perhaps 120 PSI) right at TDC. On the other hand, if we provide a combustible fuel/air mixture combustion causes the pressure to build to a much higher value - typically 800 PSI in a normally-aspirated engine. Just sayin. Oh, by the way thanks for the discussion, I appreciate your view and you know your stuff.

Thanks

*No debate here, just conversation*

I researched, actually for hours, tensile strength of threads in different materials. I admit it's pretty amazing how much stress in pounds it actually takes to rip threads out, even in aluminum. I agree, that by the "book" or numbers, it takes huge amounts of stress to pull the threads out of aluminum threads roughly .5" thick. Much more than the weight of the particular engine in question. But, here's the simple fact. No amount of math (none that anyone here want's to do, even for fun) can tell you how much degradation the aluminum has gone through over the course of a million heat up and cool down cycles. You don't know how many times the spark plug has been unscrewed and threaded back in, or how much it has been over-torqued in the process. You really don't know how good of alloy the aluminum was made from, or the standard by which it was made. Point is, the threads in that head may be just at the point of failing, and you may never know just by looking in the hole. I wholeheartedly agree that the same rationale goes for the threads in the block, but my simple mind would like to think that the cast iron block is far stronger than the aluminum head. Plus, the threads in the block are about 100X less likely to have been compromised from constant threading in and out. All and all, at the end of the day, I'll take my chances with the 3/8" bolts in the cast block, over the 14MM spark plug hole. I bow to the engineering side of this debate, as I appreciate you guys ability and what you know. I really enjoy math and the formula's I searched through and played with while researching this. But, in the end, common sense and my years tug'n wrenches says "don't do it".

[dbuck]

Like my Father used to tell me, boy those engineers only think this is how it should work/go together. I have worked with some down to earth engineers and on the other hand I have worked with some that could not hit their azz with both hands.

[john hall]

Originally Posted by Cubby guy

My late Dad worked for IH for 31 years, and I can't count how many times he came home grumbling " Oh boy, I'd love to find the sorry {strong descriptive language deleted } that designed this and talk to him with my hands!! "

My dad spent 23 years at an IH dealer. He worded it this way, "Whoever thought this was a good idea ought to be shot with s*&% and then killed for stinking." Also, they would let the sales reps know when they were encountering a bad idea causing problems with equipment. Someone at the dealer once told the rep that "they needed to have some funerals in the engineering department".

[john hall]

Originally Posted by dvogtvpe

engineers and mechanics seldom get along.

You should hear some of the things we machinist have to say about engineers and draftsmen. Especially with CAD systems, its easy to draw it, not so easy to make it. When possible we try to get to know who drew it to see if he has a brain. It is a joy to work on projects for the ones that do.

[yeeter]

Originally Posted by J-Mech

Thanks

*No debate here, just conversation*

I researched, actually for hours, tensile strength of threads in different materials. I admit it's pretty amazing how much stress in pounds it actually takes to rip threads out, even in aluminum. I agree, that by the "book" or numbers, it takes huge amounts of stress to pull the threads out of aluminum threads roughly .5" thick. Much more than the weight of the particular engine in question. But, here's the simple fact. No amount of math (none that anyone here want's to do, even for fun) can tell you how much degradation the aluminum has gone through over the course of a million heat up and cool down cycles. You don't know how many times the spark plug has been unscrewed and threaded back in, or how much it has been over-torqued in the process. You really don't know how good of alloy the aluminum was made from, or the standard by which it was made. Point is, the threads in that head may be just at the point of failing, and you may never know just by looking in the hole. I wholeheartedly agree that the same rationale goes for the threads in the block, but my simple mind would like to think that the cast iron block is far stronger than the aluminum head. Plus, the threads in the block are about 100X less likely to have been compromised from constant threading in and out. All and all, at the end of the day, I'll take my chances with the 3/8" bolts in the cast block, over the 14MM spark plug hole. I bow to the engineering side of this debate, as I appreciate you guys ability and what you know. I really enjoy math and the formula's I searched through and played with while researching this. But, in the end, common sense and my years tug'n wrenches says "don't do it".

Jonathan, I really respect that you took some time to dig a little and read about some of this, verses simply bashing all engineers (its pretty easy to bash whatever groups you want to, whether it be engineers, mechanics, or sales people). You could have simply taken the stance that 'I know the 'right' way to do it and my way is the only way'. In the end your recommendation didnt sway, but you were at least open to learning about a differing view.

Your experience is tremendous and I appreciate your contributions and having you on this site. I know I have learned a lot by reading your posts.

[darryljs]

Originally Posted by yeeter

Jonathan, I really respect that you took some time to dig a little and read about some of this, verses simply bashing all engineers (its pretty easy to bash whatever groups you want to, whether it be engineers, mechanics, or sales people). You could have simply taken the stance that 'I know the 'right' way to do it and my way is the only way'. In the end your recommendation didnt sway, but you were at least open to learning about a differing view.

Your experience is tremendous and I appreciate your contributions and having you on this site. I know I have learned a lot by reading your posts.

I strongly agree with Yeeter, and you showed me a lot of respect by taking time to research what I was talking about. I'm not an engineer but I worked in steel construction and as a millwright for many years. We needed to know stresses and weight bearings. I do a lot of research on subjects I want to know about. That's why I came to this site and I learned a lot especially from J-MECH. Thanks again to everyone for all the useful info on this site.

[bocephus1991]

I will say this, it's your engine you can do what you want. Me I'm going to use the lifting tabes on my engines to lift them... Why take a chance?? If it drops you could ruin an engine I'm not gonna chance it. My 2cents

[sawdustdad]

This engineer uses a head bolt bracket to lift the engines. As a nuclear engineer my approach is very conservative, so I look for the best way to do something--being safest, lowest risk of failure and often with some redundancy.

My arrangement involves the nuclear principles of defense-in-depth and leverages PRA (probabilistic risk assessment) methodologies. First, I use a chain fall from the overhead beam hooked to one head bolt. Then, a come-along hooked to a pair of rafter trusses is fitted with a pair of lifting straps around the PTO and blower housing. Then, a hydraulic lift is fitted underneath. A series of air mattresses supplemented with crush-able styrofoam peanuts are placed along the movement route to cushion the engine's fall should all three lifting mechanism fail simultaneously.

This will avoid any "engine falldown" accident and the attendant risk of contaminating the work area with engine parts and spilled engine oil.

OK, so there.

I do have to say, there's a difference between today's new engineers (both of my children among them) who have little practical hands on experience and my generation of engineers that went to engineering school to learn why things work. If my parents knew half of what I was doing down in Dad's workroom, they'd have had a heart attack. I was melting copper in a home made arc furnace at age 14. (see the popular mechanics encyclopedia, c. 1954 for details). Sometimes I wonder how I survived my youth.

I spent plenty of time in the the nuclear plant's machine shop working out problems with the craftsmen there. I have plenty of respect for the guys that get the tough jobs done.

[dbuck]

Originally Posted by TheSaturnV

You didn't get older, you got smarter.

I guess not, I am younger than the ones over 70. Some days I wonder about the smarter part.