Only Cub Cadets

Only Cub Cadets (https://www.onlycubcadets.net/forum/index.php)
-   IH Cub Cadet Tractors (GT) (https://www.onlycubcadets.net/forum/forumdisplay.php?f=9)
-   -   Eliminating fuel pump (https://www.onlycubcadets.net/forum/showthread.php?t=53517)

Mudrig150 10-04-2018 12:10 PM
Eliminating fuel pump
 
On an 82 series tractor, don't they need a fuel pump to run as the tank sits lower than the carb? Would it be fine to replace the fuel pump with a 1-3 psi electric fuel pump or 3-5 psi one? I'm going to be in an engine without one.

Oak 10-04-2018 12:16 PM
If you don't live on a hill side and keep it above 1/4 tank you will be fine. I ran an 1811 without one for a few years.

Mudrig150 10-04-2018 12:18 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Oak (Post 468463)
If you don't live on a hill side and keep it above 1/4 tank you will be fine. I ran an 1811 without one for a few years.
Well, a good portion of our farm is hills.

R Bedell 10-04-2018 12:25 PM
1 Attachment(s)
IF....you want to run an Electric Fuel Pump, this has worked well..

J-Mech 10-04-2018 12:32 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mudrig150 (Post 468460)
On an 82 series tractor, don't they need a fuel pump to run as the tank sits lower than the carb? Would it be fine to replace the fuel pump with a 1-3 psi electric fuel pump or 3-5 psi one? I'm going to be in an engine without one.
What's wrong with a mechanical pump?

Mudrig150 10-04-2018 12:32 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by R Bedell (Post 468468)
IF....you want to run an Electric Fuel Pump, this has worked well..
Still have't figured out how they work. do they go into the tank and have a line coming out?

J-Mech 10-04-2018 12:36 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mudrig150 (Post 468472)
Still have't figured out how they work. do they go into the tank and have a line coming out?
They're in-line. They come with directions. :angry:

Back to my question: what's wrong with a mechanical pump? No wires, last a long time.....

Gompers 10-04-2018 01:15 PM
I run electrics with check valves on my main workers because I trust them more than mechanical ones to not leak into the crankcase. That’s a pretty common thing on KTs and Mags. Can’t speak to mechanical pumps on k-series but I don’t think those are as common on cubs. . You can also make an adapter plate and run a vacuum one.

J-Mech 10-04-2018 01:42 PM
It's only a common problem after the engine/fuel pump is 25 years old or has a but load of hours. I bought my 1811 in 2002 with about 1300 hours on it. Motor was new at 1175. It now has 2100 hours. I've put ONE fuel pump on it. To me that isn't a bad enough failure rate to justify wiring up an electric pump that may last 10 years if you're really lucky. Failure rate on electric pumps is higher than mechanical.

Gompers 10-04-2018 02:10 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by J-Mech (Post 468481)
It's only a common problem after the engine/fuel pump is 25 years old or has a but load of hours. I bought my 1811 in 2002 with about 1300 hours on it. Motor was new at 1175. It now has 2100 hours. I've put ONE fuel pump on it. To me that isn't a bad enough failure rate to justify wiring up an electric pump that may last 10 years if you're really lucky. Failure rate on electric pumps is higher than mechanical.
Fair enough. It's just a peace of mind thing for me. I know that's one thing I (probably) don't have to worry about happening.

I also like that electric pumps can "pre-prime" the carb without cranking the engine.

I think I like the vacuum pump the best of all of them, though, since they are super cheap (and easy) to replace compared to the other two options.

J-Mech 10-04-2018 02:30 PM
I hate the vacuum pump the most. Fails more often than any other, and doesn't work half as good as either the mechanical or electric. If I had a Cub with one, I'd convert it to one of the other two styles. I've replaced lots of those junk pumps. I hate them.

I've never seen the need for a carb on a Cub to be primed before starting. They always have plenty of gas in the bowl to fire up.

twoton 10-04-2018 07:12 PM
Hey kid, I think you'd be happy with that electric fuel pump that Mr Bedell linked you to.

If you're interested in the vacuum pump Gompers was talkin' 'bout, my boy Taryl made a most excellent video on the subject on the youtube;

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aqZGWRJ66b4

:ThumbsUp:

CubDieselFan 10-04-2018 08:46 PM
I like the electric ones as well.

J-Mech 10-04-2018 09:09 PM
So.... just to play along. I want to know what you guys like so much about an electric pump over the mechanical?

There are lots and lots of applications where mechanical pumps cause issues and going electric fixes the problem. For example: The old Ditch Witch trenchers had Wisconsin V4's in them. They had a mechanical pump on them, and they were TERRIBLE about vapor lock while running, especially when the machines got older, or even a newer one in the heat of the summer. Going electric stopped the vapor lock issues. There are other examples where the mechanical's aren't available anymore or other equipment that had the same issues as the Ditch Witches..... but these Kohlers don't have vapor lock issues. The fuel pumps last a very long time. Don't cost much more than an electric one, and typically outlast an electric. You don't have to mess with wiring with a mechanical, the engines don't have priming issues, they start just as fast with either....... so, why the preference? I do not understand.

john hall 10-04-2018 09:57 PM
I just want to put an inline solenoid to cut off the fuel supply. I have manual inline shutoffs that you can easily get to on everything with a twin cylinder and we do cut the fuel supply off every time we shut down--call it KT17 phobia from way back. FWIW, they are all running the style pump they can from the factory with. Talking about 2 Magnums, a KT, and an Onan.

olds45512 10-04-2018 10:15 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by john hall (Post 468532)
I just want to put an inline solenoid to cut off the fuel supply. I have manual inline shutoffs that you can easily get to on everything with a twin cylinder and we do cut the fuel supply off every time we shut down--call it KT17 phobia from way back. FWIW, they are all running the style pump they can from the factory with. Talking about 2 Magnums, a KT, and an Onan.
I do the same thing. I have a manual shut off right before the pump on the 782 and whenever i'm done using it the fuel gets shut off, might be overkill but it gives me peace of mind.

Gompers 10-04-2018 10:28 PM
It's one less thing that can go wrong with the engine, IMO.

Those mechanical pumps can fail and leak gas into the crankcase. You won't know it's doing it until it shows up in the oil. Depending on how diligent you are in checking the oil, it's not a huge deal if it does and you catch it, but as sensitive as these engines are to oil issues, it's not something I like worrying about.

They can also fail and leak gas down the side of the engine gathering up gunk and ending up down by the starter.

I mount the electric pump up on the firewall. It's dead easy to wire on a KT. If it leaks, it's super easy to replace, and it'll just drip a bit of gas down onto the blower housing or firewall. Not a huge deal and super easy to spot. I can swap one out in maybe 5 minutes.

A new pump on a good engine? It's fine and I would be fine with it too. But if I'm going to have to replace the mechanical one with a new pump, I'll almost always go electric and cap off the old one just because, IMO, it's easier.

DieselDoctor 10-04-2018 10:39 PM
Go diesel. You get two pumps a lift pump and an injection pump! :biggrin2:

Mudrig150 10-05-2018 07:13 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Gompers (Post 468537)
A new pump on a good engine? It's fine and I would be fine with it too. But if I'm going to have to replace the mechanical one with a new pump, I'll almost always go electric and cap off the old one just because, IMO, it's easier.
It's basically just a peace of mind thing, plus an electric pump can be changed for a higher flow one, whereas I've never seen a higher flow kohler pump.

J-Mech 10-05-2018 08:16 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mudrig150 (Post 468556)
It's basically just a peace of mind thing, plus an electric pump can be changed for a higher flow one, whereas I've never seen a higher flow kohler pump.
That's because you don't need a higher flow pump. You have to do a lot of work to a K series to get it where a stock pump won't flow to it. Most guys who put a high flow pump on their garden tractor puller end up.pusing the needle valve open while the float is trying to close it. Kid.... you got a lot to learn.

Gompers 10-05-2018 08:17 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mudrig150 (Post 468556)
It's basically just a peace of mind thing, plus an electric pump can be changed for a higher flow one, whereas I've never seen a higher flow kohler pump.
I can’t possibly imagine a need for a higher flow pump than the mechanical one in anything resembling a stock kohler engine.

J-Mech 10-05-2018 08:45 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Gompers (Post 468537)
It's one less thing that can go wrong with the engine, IMO.
:bash2: So, an electric pump never fails? I'm not sure the fuel pump is considered as part of the engine either...


Quote:
Originally Posted by Gompers (Post 468537)
Those mechanical pumps can fail and leak gas into the crankcase. You won't know it's doing it until it shows up in the oil. Depending on how diligent you are in checking the oil, it's not a huge deal if it does and you catch it, but as sensitive as these engines are to oil issues, it's not something I like worrying about.

They can also fail and leak gas down the side of the engine gathering up gunk and ending up down by the starter.
You should check the oil before you use the machine every time. That's how you catch things like that. Unless you're one of those guys who shut off the gas on your tractor every time you shut the tractor off, then you are just as likely to ruin the engine via a stuck float or failing needle valve as you are with a mechanical carb that leaked gas into the crankcase. If you are worried about it leaking gas externally, then you just don't ever want to open the hood and check your machine. I grew up on a farm, and still do.... I was taught to take better care of my equipment. The hood gets opened every new day. Sometimes during the day if I suspect an issue. Takes a few seconds to look over the engine, and normally, a gas leak is pretty obvious from the smell. Yeah.... the fuel pump can leak gas externally..... and the seal behind the flywheel can fail and make a really big mess. The mechanical pumps fail about as often as crank seals. Do you have a solution for that problem too?


Quote:
Originally Posted by Gompers (Post 468537)
I mount the electric pump up on the firewall. It's dead easy to wire on a KT. If it leaks, it's super easy to replace, and it'll just drip a bit of gas down onto the blower housing or firewall. Not a huge deal and super easy to spot. I can swap one out in maybe 5 minutes.

A new pump on a good engine? It's fine and I would be fine with it too. But if I'm going to have to replace the mechanical one with a new pump, I'll almost always go electric and cap off the old one just because, IMO, it's easier.
So... running a wire for a pump, mounting it replumbing the fuel lines and capping off an old pump mount are "easier" than unhooking two fuel lines and two mounting bolts? Mounting bolts that you are going to take off anyway to cap off the pump mount. That really seems like more work. I've already given enough opinion..... I won't go into detail how ridiculous that statement sounds to a guy who just changed a mechanical pump out on a 317 in a couple minutes a few days ago.

R Bedell 10-05-2018 08:49 AM
Quote:
It's basically just a peace of mind thing, plus an electric pump can be changed for a higher flow one, whereas I've never seen a higher flow kohler pump.
:bash2::bash2:

You can only get so much fuel through an orifice (jet) regardless if you feed it with a pump doing 10 Gallons a minute.

As a suggestion, you might want to READ the Kohler Service Manual and see what the fuel spec are. After all, the Kohler Engineers know more than you. :RTFM:

:bash2::bash2:

rwairforce 10-05-2018 12:27 PM
It sounds like this topic has had enough fuel pumped to it.
Sorry, I couldn't resist!!! ahahahahahahaha!!!! humor, see the humor.

I have to say that Jonathan makes a lot of sense. He just makes too many valid points to argue with. Bottom line, as Jonathan would say, it's your machine do what you want.

Good exchange. Thanks everyone. I love that head banging icon too!

Gompers 10-05-2018 03:50 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by J-Mech (Post 468574)
:bash2: So, an electric pump never fails? I'm not sure the fuel pump is considered as part of the engine either...




You should check the oil before you use the machine every time. That's how you catch things like that. Unless you're one of those guys who shut off the gas on your tractor every time you shut the tractor off, then you are just as likely to ruin the engine via a stuck float or failing needle valve as you are with a mechanical carb that leaked gas into the crankcase. If you are worried about it leaking gas externally, then you just don't ever want to open the hood and check your machine. I grew up on a farm, and still do.... I was taught to take better care of my equipment. The hood gets opened every new day. Sometimes during the day if I suspect an issue. Takes a few seconds to look over the engine, and normally, a gas leak is pretty obvious from the smell. Yeah.... the fuel pump can leak gas externally..... and the seal behind the flywheel can fail and make a really big mess. The mechanical pumps fail about as often as crank seals. Do you have a solution for that problem too?




So... running a wire for a pump, mounting it replumbing the fuel lines and capping off an old pump mount are "easier" than unhooking two fuel lines and two mounting bolts? Mounting bolts that you are going to take off anyway to cap off the pump mount. That really seems like more work. I've already given enough opinion..... I won't go into detail how ridiculous that statement sounds to a guy who just changed a mechanical pump out on a 317 in a couple minutes a few days ago.
When an electric pump fails it doesn’t fail in a way that can cause the engine to fail completely. That’s basically why I use them.

And yes, a stuck needle can still be a problem. But with a check valve in the fuel pump (I.e it only moves fuel when it’s running) that’s not really a concern of mine either after it’s been sitting.

It literally takes 15 minutes to install an electric fuel pump. You make it sound like it’s a major inconvenience.

Like I said, nothing wrong with mechanical ones. Your tractor, do what you want.

I apologize that my way of doing things upsets you.

J-Mech 10-06-2018 09:29 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Gompers (Post 468643)
When an electric pump fails it doesn’t fail in a way that can cause the engine to fail completely. That’s basically why I use them.

And yes, a stuck needle can still be a problem. But with a check valve in the fuel pump (I.e it only moves fuel when it’s running) that’s not really a concern of mine either after it’s been sitting.
Don't worry, your use of an electric pump doesn't upset me. You just use circular reasoning, and poor understand of a mechanical pump, as a basis to install it and that doesn't make sense to me. Ignoring good info and sound reasoning also doesn't make sense. You should keep an open mind. You might learn something.

By the way, the check valve in the fuel pump is a one way check valve. (Kinda how check valves work.) Gas pressure from the fuel tank can still open it up and push gas through the carb. Gas just can't go backwards to the tank. The valve is to keep the pump from losing prime on systems where the tank is lower. If the check valve worked the other way, the pump wouldn't push fuel to the carb, as it would close the check valve. So..... yes. Even with an electric pump and a full tank of gas (or anything over 1/4) if the needle valve sticks, the engine will still fill up with gas.

MBY852 07-07-2020 05:41 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by R Bedell (Post 468468)
IF....you want to run an Electric Fuel Pump, this has worked well..
I think I'm having fuel pump issues now on my 2155, under 800 hours. It'll run about 15-20 min then acts likes it's running out of gas, so what I been reading is it's probably the fuel pump. So trying to get a quick cheap fix I got the typical Chinese copy and yes I got what I paid for. I put it on and it fired right up and seem to run fine. I shut it off and an hour later wouldn't start and this morning wouldn't start either. So I put the old one back on and cut for about 15 min then it quit. :bash2:

So I see you like the Facet 40252. I'm going to go that route but I can't find that model anywhere unless it's been replaced by another model. Theres so many different models with different psi. I'm guessing the 1-4 psi is the way to go but are running it without a regulator. I checked out a lot of videos on the tube and most are adding a regulator due to the mower bogging down under a load or not being able to idle it down due to to much gas running into the carb.
Any and all help is much appreciated!

MBY852 07-07-2020 06:00 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by MBY852 (Post 499007)
So I see you like the Facet 40252. I'm going to go that route but I can't find that model anywhere unless it's been replaced by another model.

I just searched again and I did find that one on Amazon for $85, ouch! But if that solves my problem it'll be worth it!

ol'George 07-07-2020 06:00 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by MBY852 (Post 499007)
I think I'm having fuel pump issues now on my 2155, under 800 hours. It'll run about 15-20 min then acts likes it's running out of gas, so what I been reading is it's probably the fuel pump. So trying to get a quick cheap fix I got the typical Chinese copy and yes I got what I paid for. I put it on and it fired right up and seem to run fine. I shut it off and an hour later wouldn't start and this morning wouldn't start either. So I put the old one back on and cut for about 15 min then it quit. :bash2:

So I see you like the Facet 40252. I'm going to go that route but I can't find that model anywhere unless it's been replaced by another model. Theres so many different models with different psi. I'm guessing the 1-4 psi is the way to go but are running it without a regulator. I checked out a lot of videos on the tube and most are adding a regulator due to the mower bogging down under a load or not being able to idle it down due to to much gas running into the carb.
Any and all help is much appreciated!
Have you checked your fuel flow out of the tank? have you cleaned the tank filter screen?
Don't condemn a pump till you have checked the flow into and out of the pump, and into the carb.
I could tell a 100 stories of fuel delivery problems that were obstructions to flow and nothing wrong with the pump.
take your time and remember shit floats--- in the tank and when one disturbs the flexible lines, little pieces many times become lodged in small places and can lodge under pump check valves.
Your money your time, best of luck. :bigthink:

MBY852 07-07-2020 06:32 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by ol'George (Post 499011)
Have you checked your fuel flow out of the tank? have you cleaned the tank filter screen?
Don't condemn a pump till you have checked the flow into and out of the pump, and into the carb.
I could tell a 100 stories of fuel delivery problems that were obstructions to flow and nothing wrong with the pump.
take your time and remember shit floats--- in the tank and when one disturbs the flexible lines, little pieces many times become lodged in small places and can lodge under pump check valves.
Your money your time, best of luck. :bigthink:
Haven't checked the flow to the carb yet. The flow from the tank to the filter seems fine. I read another post on here where a guy blew the line from the tank and a beetle came out.

It just seems weird that the last 3 times I used it it behaved the same way, 15-20 min then quit. It may not be the pump.:bash2:

CADplans 07-07-2020 07:02 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by MBY852 (Post 499013)
It just seems weird that the last 3 times I used it it behaved the same way, 15-20 min then quit. It may not be the pump.:bash2:
15 minutes, then quit,,, is usually a clogged gas cap vent,,

Try it with the gas cap off,,

If it were mine, and still did it,,
I would set up a nurse tank (it would look like an IV bottle) and feed the carb directly, no tank, or pump, involved.

Only if it then runs, can you start looking for a problem.

I bought a two year old tractor, the FIRST thing I did was empty the fuel tank, flush it, and fill with clean fuel.
Now, I admit, that was a diesel, but, I did not like the way the fuel "looked"
The tractor ran MUCH better after cleaning the tank, and changing the fuel,,,

Billy-O 07-07-2020 07:30 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by MBY852 (Post 499013)
Haven't checked the flow to the carb yet. The flow from the tank to the filter seems fine. I read another post on here where a guy blew the line from the tank and a beetle came out.

It just seems weird that the last 3 times I used it it behaved the same way, 15-20 min then quit. It may not be the pump.:bash2:
Just curious..... when the engine quits, how long before it fires up again?

MBY852 07-07-2020 07:56 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Billy-O (Post 499018)
Just curious..... when the engine quits, how long before it fires up again?
I really don't know exactly. Twice I had to push it back to my shed and maybe an hour later it would start up. Being that it only happened the last 3 times I don't have an accurate time frame.

MBY852 07-07-2020 08:01 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by CADplans (Post 499016)
15 minutes, then quit,,, is usually a clogged gas cap vent,,

Try it with the gas cap off,,

flush it, and fill with clean fuel.
I'll give the gas cap a try first. I would think if the pump was bad it shouldn't act like that, work then not work but I'm far from being an expert on these kind of matters.

West Valley G 07-07-2020 10:15 PM
Ran into this exact symptom of run a while then sit for an hour to start etc that
you are describing. After these good fellas gave me the same advice to
make sure all was spic and span. I pulled and cleaned the tank replaced
all fuel line ( cheap fix) and cleaned all thing gas excluding carb and
fuel pump. That was 4 years ago and it hasn't missed a beat. My opinion
as a student here at OCC is clean clean clean. Then worry about the other
stuff.

Ken

MBY852 07-08-2020 09:28 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by West Valley G (Post 499024)
Ran into this exact symptom of run a while then sit for an hour to start etc that
you are describing. After these good fellas gave me the same advice to
make sure all was spic and span. I pulled and cleaned the tank replaced
all fuel line ( cheap fix) and cleaned all thing gas excluding carb and
fuel pump. That was 4 years ago and it hasn't missed a beat. My opinion
as a student here at OCC is clean clean clean. Then worry about the other
stuff.

Ken
Thanks for that info Ken and to all the others for there help! I'll put a new fuel filter on and then drain the tank and put on or blow out the fuel line. The fuel filter definitely needs changed. Hopefully that will be the problem before I go and put on a fuel pump.

MBY852 07-26-2020 03:29 PM
Well I tried it with the gas cap off. I put a new fuel line from the tank to the pump and new filter. I put a new fuel pump on (from fleabay) and it did the same thing so I put the original back on. It still only runs for about 20 min and thats it. When it quits the fuel filter hardly has any gas in it. So the only thing that I can think of next is the electric pump unless somebody has any other remedies. :bash2:

Loader 08-03-2020 11:46 AM
1 Attachment(s)
I used a low 1-2 psi Facet #40177 in my 782 with a KT-17 Series II and wouldn't have it any other way!


All times are GMT -4. The time now is 10:31 AM.

Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.11
Copyright ©2000 - 2026, vBulletin Solutions Inc.